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originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: MadLad
I'd be interested in reading about those studies. If you can provide a source?
It's really a double edged sword isn't it, many people would use not having a free will as an excuse to avoid responsibility- so many people. While others obsessed with control would look for every way to reinforce the existence of free will. Here you are producing a super "us against them" vibe, whether you meant to do this or not, which if I understand correctly... Jung might say is the key symptom of denying your own shadow. I'm a big denier of shadows myself, maybe I was wrong to say what I said before.
originally posted by: MadLad
originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad
Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.
You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?
Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.
Cheers - Dave
I do control all of my constituent parts. Though a gamma ray could theoretically damage a constituent part, it takes a leap of absurdity to say it controls all subsequent actions.
Actually, studies have shown that people with a strong belief in free will perform better in a variety of contexts, such as in work and academic settings. Likewise, studies involving experimental manipulations of the belief in free will have demonstrated that weakening people’s belief in free will increases antisocial behavior, such as cheating, racial prejudice, and aggressiveness toward others, as well as decreases prosocial attitudes expressed in altruistic and cooperative behavior.
Does it seem as if we live in a harmonious world today, with everyone wanting to blame someone else for their current situation?
originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: geezlouise
From my point of view, it doesn't seem honest in saying that people who believe in complete free will are just looking for control. They don't want to control others, the exact opposite would probably be closer to the truth. The lovers of free will want others to take care of themselves, to take self accountability and responsibility because that makes this reality better for everyone. Makes the world better. Makes living in harmony with each other and our environment a possibility. Does it seem like we live in a harmonious world today, with everyone looking to blame someone else for their current situation?
so is that free will or a product of his circumstances and conditioning
originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
originally posted by: MadLad
originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad
Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.
You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?
Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.
Cheers - Dave
I do control all of my constituent parts. Though a gamma ray could theoretically damage a constituent part, it takes a leap of absurdity to say it controls all subsequent actions.
Actually, studies have shown that people with a strong belief in free will perform better in a variety of contexts, such as in work and academic settings. Likewise, studies involving experimental manipulations of the belief in free will have demonstrated that weakening people’s belief in free will increases antisocial behavior, such as cheating, racial prejudice, and aggressiveness toward others, as well as decreases prosocial attitudes expressed in altruistic and cooperative behavior.
Like I said, prove it, prove that you have control of all of your constituent parts and that nothing can influence your ability in making decisions.
Cheers - Dave
originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: justbe
No one is holding the strings...... there is nothing separate doing anything.
Everything is just happening..... all is done.
The idea there is that there is a thinker of thoughts and a doer of actions........... but there is no thinker of thoughts, there are thoughts happening but they have no thinker thinking them. There's no one 'in there'.
Everything is happening spontaneously all by itself.
There is a full documentary film on youtube called 'Who' s Driving the Dreambus? '........
originally posted by: MadLad
originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
originally posted by: MadLad
originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad
Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.
You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?
Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.
Cheers - Dave
I do control all of my constituent parts. Though a gamma ray could theoretically damage a constituent part, it takes a leap of absurdity to say it controls all subsequent actions.
Actually, studies have shown that people with a strong belief in free will perform better in a variety of contexts, such as in work and academic settings. Likewise, studies involving experimental manipulations of the belief in free will have demonstrated that weakening people’s belief in free will increases antisocial behavior, such as cheating, racial prejudice, and aggressiveness toward others, as well as decreases prosocial attitudes expressed in altruistic and cooperative behavior.
Like I said, prove it, prove that you have control of all of your constituent parts and that nothing can influence your ability in making decisions.
Cheers - Dave
That’s what the whole OP is about. I gave the example of the heartbeat. What besides yourself makes your heart beat? You could start there.
originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
originally posted by: MadLad
originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
originally posted by: MadLad
originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad
Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.
You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?
Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.
Cheers - Dave
I do control all of my constituent parts. Though a gamma ray could theoretically damage a constituent part, it takes a leap of absurdity to say it controls all subsequent actions.
Actually, studies have shown that people with a strong belief in free will perform better in a variety of contexts, such as in work and academic settings. Likewise, studies involving experimental manipulations of the belief in free will have demonstrated that weakening people’s belief in free will increases antisocial behavior, such as cheating, racial prejudice, and aggressiveness toward others, as well as decreases prosocial attitudes expressed in altruistic and cooperative behavior.
Like I said, prove it, prove that you have control of all of your constituent parts and that nothing can influence your ability in making decisions.
Cheers - Dave
That’s what the whole OP is about. I gave the example of the heartbeat. What besides yourself makes your heart beat? You could start there.
Your heartbeat, like your breathing is under autonomous automatic control. It is part of a neural/biological feedback system. It has nothing to do with you or anyone else making a decision to control the rate or efficiency of your heartbeat. Your or anyone else's heartbeat has nothing to do with free will.
When I said prove it, I really meant prove it, because I know with extremely high probability that you can't prove free will exists. In order to prove almost anything with 100% certainty, one would have to exist outside the observed reality (system being measured). The question of free will is not unlike asking what the length of a yardstick is on earth and in a deep gravity well because it's different depending on your point of reference. To the person holding the yardstick, it looks like 36" on earth and in the gravity well. To a person outside the system it might look like 36" on earth, but in the gravity well it would be compressed and would look to be some small fraction of 36".
So, inside our reality construct we have the illusion of free will. An observer outside our reality construct would see us like characters in a movie, reading our lines and going through the motions.
Cheers - Dave
originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: MadLad
Ask Google....... Is there a thinker of thoughts?
And see what shows up.
originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: bobs_uruncle
There are many articles out there that say otherwise. If you were so inclined, you could even freely educate yourself. One of the best examples are freedivers that learn to expertly control their heart rate and breathing.
Have you never tried to speed up your heart rate through concentration?