Free Will does Exist When you can Identify yourself

Man has free will in the sense that nothing controls his actions but himself. In this sense, free will exists.

But viewing the debate regarding free will with this condition in mind, it leads me to believe materialists are not materialist enough to reason about it. They broke ground in the debate by naming existing things inside themselves as the locus of their conscience, consciousness, and mind, but they still believe that whatever the cause of their action, it exists outside or prior to themselves. In other words, they still suffer from the same fallacies of their dualist peers.

As an example, consider the Libet experiments and their implications. Though Benjamin Libet’s experiments purported to show that the decision to act occurs in the brain or “subconscious” long before it is consciously decided, we are still left with the questions of “whose brain?” and “whose subconscious?”. For even if the decision to act is made in the big toe, it still holds true that nothing controls man’s actions but himself.

Yet, whether it is the brain or soul instigating man’s actions it is always man himself controlling them. For opponents of free will, the tendency to look inside themselves, past their skin, past their flesh, past their skeleton for the seat of their consciousness testifies that it is nonetheless themselves – even the faintest piece of themselves – and nothing else controlling their actions.

Materialists and neuroscientists who suggest that we cannot will our brain to operate anymore than we can will our heart to beat are missing the crucial point: man himself, and nothing else, makes his brain operate and heart beat. The sinoatrial node, the hearts natural pacemaker, is not a foreign object in man’s body. It is a piece of him. Man does control and regulate his own heartbeat, whether he is conscious of it or not.

That’s why I’ve come to believe the problem of free will isn’t one of mind or metaphysics, but of identity. Who or what besides ourselves controls our actions? Dualists posit a substance or other entity, like a spirit or soul. Materialists and physicalists posit the brain or nervous system. Neither, however, are willing nor able to posit themselves. If they did, they would come to believe free will exists.

originally posted by: MadLad
Man has free will in the sense that nothing controls his actions but himself.

Not necessarily. Your situation can force you to make a choice that you would not have made in a different situation. If a bad guy is absolutely going to kill you and gives you a choice between a gun and a knife, you do not have free will. If God puts you in a mortal body that requires food and water and shelter, nothing you do to get those things is of your free will. Your only real free will choice is to opt out with suicide. But if you weren't in that situation, you wouldn't make that choice. So is it really free will?

If you pick a card from a stacked deck, it's not free will.

You don't really have free will; you have the SENSATION of being free, because you grew up intellectually in a culture that prizes freedom and tells you that you have it. That culture de-values control, and teaches you not to notice when you are being controlled. Which is why pretty girls sell the beer in the commercials.

An evil genius could build a robot, and program it to believe it is thinking "free thoughts", and pat itself on the back for being so clever, and then to bask in the emotionally gratifying glow of believing in its own free will.

but you'd still be a robot.

It's called a Philosophical Zombie

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a reply to: MadLad

Let's put it another way, a mans family has been killed by the army in war, he joins a terrorist organisation and is conditioned by them to kill the enemy, so is that free will or a product of his circumstances and conditioning

a reply to: MadLad

I don't believe we have free will.

I feel like I am in a prison on this earth. I have never felt free. They even call me a criminal for liking cannabis in my country when it is lawful in other states.

Economically I am in a prison. Socially I am in a prison.

My will wants to have a beautiful music studio in a beautiful natural setting where the mist plays piano over the lake with its wispy fingers as the birds sing the dawn chorus. I am highly unlikely to get that because of my position in life.

Even in my mind and imagination I am not free. I am intellectual minded and sometimes "they" even get to me and I catch myself thinking a thought that somebody else either gave me or made me have as a reaction to something they have done to me.

I will tell you in what sense we are free though on this earth. Jesus and the Urim Thummim taught me it. We can say YES and NO to anything that wants us to do something imposing its own will on us by manipulation for its gain. I am learning how to say NO big time right now. We have that freedom. There are of course consequences for saying yes and no, but sometimes we can't let them take us hostage and we must be brave even if saying yes or no may affect uus negatively in another way.

This democracy I live in is not even free for the rich people. They are in prison even more than I. Some well known people can't just go out in public like we can. They might be taken hostage to extort cash or harmed because people are crazy like that.

I never wanted to be a victim of circumstance, but I have ended up that way. There is no fighting that really. Please, guys, here is a rare chance to listen to a not very well known song by a very unique artist, relating to our victimhood of fate.

We are all in the end "victim(s) of circumstance" and "loser(s) who lost (their) chance"

originally posted by: ManyMasks
a reply to: MadLad

Let's put it another way, a mans family has been killed by the army in war, he joins a terrorist organisation and is conditioned by them to kill the enemy, so is that free will or a product of his circumstances and conditioning

Yes, because he continues to be the only one controlling his actions.

originally posted by: Malak777
a reply to: MadLad

I don't believe we have free will.

I feel like I am in a prison on this earth. I have never felt free. They even call me a criminal for liking cannabis in my country when it is lawful in other states.

Economically I am in a prison. Socially I am in a prison.

My will wants to have a beautiful music in studio in a beautiful natural setting by a lake where the mist plays piano over the lak with its wispy fingers as the birds sing the dawn chorus. I am highly unlikely to get that because of my position in life.

Even in my mind and imagination I am not free. I am very bright and sometimes "they" even get to me and I catch myself thinking a thought that somebody else either gave me or made me have as a reaction to something they have done to me.

I will tell you in what sense we are free though on this earth. Jesus and the Urim Thummim taught me it. We can say YES and NO to anything that wants us to do something it wants us to do. I am learning how to say NO big time right now. We have that freedom. There are of course consequences for saying yes and no, but sometimes we can't let them take us hostage and we must be brave even if saying yes or no may affect uus negatively in another way.

This democracy I live in is not even free for the rich people. They are in prison even more than I. Some well known people can't just go out in public like we can. They might be taken hostage to extort cash or harmed because people are crazy like that.

I never wanted to be a victim of circumstance, but I have ended up that way. There is no fighting that really. Please, guys, here is a rare chance to listen to a not very well known song by a very unique artist, relating to our victimhood of fate.

We are all in then "victim(s) of circumstance" and "loser(s) who lost (their chance)"

Even in prison man has a choice. Even despite his troubles, his servitude, his chains, he can continue to rebel against them to the very last breath.

originally posted by: Graysen
You don't really have free will; you have the SENSATION of being free, because you grew up intellectually in a culture that prizes freedom and tells you that you have it. That culture de-values control, and teaches you not to notice when you are being controlled. Which is why pretty girls sell the beer in the commercials.

An evil genius could build a robot, and program it to believe it is thinking "free thoughts", and pat itself on the back for being so clever, and then to bask in the emotionally gratifying glow of believing in its own free will.

but you'd still be a robot.

It's called a Philosophical Zombie

[/matrix]

.

Are you sure you don't have the SENSATION of being unfree?

What besides you controls your actions?

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: MadLad
Man has free will in the sense that nothing controls his actions but himself.

Not necessarily. Your situation can force you to make a choice that you would not have made in a different situation. If a bad guy is absolutely going to kill you and gives you a choice between a gun and a knife, you do not have free will. If God puts you in a mortal body that requires food and water and shelter, nothing you do to get those things is of your free will. Your only real free will choice is to opt out with suicide. But if you weren't in that situation, you wouldn't make that choice. So is it really free will?

If you pick a card from a stacked deck, it's not free will.

You always have free will, no matter the circumstances. Even while being tortured and in chains, only man can decide his actions.

a reply to: MadLad

Well said. I like you, lol!

Yes, we can do that. I am doing that much. I am a stubborn ass with a very strong will. I might not be free, but I will give them a whole heap of trouble. Looking for trouble? They came to the right place, lol!

originally posted by: Malak777
a reply to: MadLad

Well said. I like you, lol!

Yes, we can do that. I am doing that much. I am a stubbornn ass with a very strong will. I might not be free, but I will give them a whole heap of trouble. Looking for trouble? They came to the right place, lol!

That's a Nietzschean view of free will. For Nietzsche, it's not a matter of free or unfree wills, but of strong and weak wills.

I'm inclined to believe along those same lines, though I prefer to ere on the side of free will, simply because the belief in free will compels man to take responsibility for his own actions. For example, there have been studies that prove that those who believe in free will are less likely to cheat on tests than those who don't.

originally posted by: MadLad
You always have free will, no matter the circumstances. Even while being tortured and in chains, only man can decide his actions.

I'm afraid you're naive.

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: Malak777
a reply to: MadLad

Well said. I like you, lol!

Yes, we can do that. I am doing that much. I am a stubbornn ass with a very strong will. I might not be free, but I will give them a whole heap of trouble. Looking for trouble? They came to the right place, lol!

That's a Nietzschean view of free will. For Nietzsche, it's not a matter of free or unfree wills, but of strong and weak wills.

I'm inclined to believe along those same lines, though I prefer to ere on the side of free will, simply because the belief in free will compels man to take responsibility for his own actions. For example, there have been studies that prove that those who believe in free will are less likely to cheat on tests than those who don't.

I am like that too. Agreed, that the concept of free will is worth holding on to. I don't think we ever get the chance to experience it as an ACT of will, that is the self ACTualization of it, but to keep hold of freedom of will is a fundamental necessity for the free thinking human who wants a free world.

Interesting you mention Nietzche. Yes, I find much of value in his writing. He was not the mad man they say he was. It was his sister who was the racist one. She was manipulating he and his writing to suit her own narrative. It is worth checking this out before we read him. He was a wonderul philosopher and now can be separated from Hitler, Fascism, Eugenics, et c and take his rightful place as a healthy classical intellectual influence on civilization.

a reply to: MadLad

I know and I agree but it is the experiences gained within the environment we are born into that can bring out the different animals that reside within our psyches, we all have the bad guy in us, it's our circumstances that dictate how much of that bad guy gets the will to do as he chooses, it's free will for him but not the other side of our nature if it is he that's most prevalent.

It's a good subject to ponder

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: MadLad
You always have free will, no matter the circumstances. Even while being tortured and in chains, only man can decide his actions.

I'm afraid you're naive.

Did you choose to write that, or is it a product of your circumstances?

originally posted by: ManyMasks
a reply to: MadLad

I know and I agree but it is the experiences gained within the environment we are born into that can bring out the different animals that reside within our psyches, we all have the bad guy in us, it's our circumstances that dictate how much of that bad guy gets the will to do as he chooses, it's free will for him but not the other side of our nature if it is he that's most prevalent.

It's a good subject to ponder

I agree with that. But memories are a part of us. I believe the past does not exist in any metaphysical sense, so it can hardly be said that this or that action is the result of it.

originally posted by: Malak777

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: Malak777
a reply to: MadLad

Well said. I like you, lol!

Yes, we can do that. I am doing that much. I am a stubbornn ass with a very strong will. I might not be free, but I will give them a whole heap of trouble. Looking for trouble? They came to the right place, lol!

That's a Nietzschean view of free will. For Nietzsche, it's not a matter of free or unfree wills, but of strong and weak wills.

I'm inclined to believe along those same lines, though I prefer to ere on the side of free will, simply because the belief in free will compels man to take responsibility for his own actions. For example, there have been studies that prove that those who believe in free will are less likely to cheat on tests than those who don't.

I am like that too. Agreed, that the concept of free will is worth holding on to. I don't think we ever get the chance to experience it as an ACT of will, that is the self ACTualization of it, but to keep hold of freedom of will is a fundamental necessity for the free thinking human who wants a free world.

Interesting you mention Nietzche. Yes, I find much of value in his writing. He was not the mad man they say he was. It was his sister who was the racist one. She was manipulating he and his writing to suit her own narrative. It is worth checking this out before we read him. He was a wonderul philosopher and now can be separated from Hitler, Fascism, Eugenics, et c and take his rightful place as a healthy classical intellectual influence on civilization.

Well said.

a reply to: MadLad

So would I be considered a dualist if I believed that we are a soul/spirit in a material body? A combination of the spiritual and physical.

If I then believed that the soul is 'me' and is responsible for all actions, wouldn't that make me a believer in free will while at the same time a dualist?

a reply to: MadLad

Part of why I posted that song was to draw your attention to the love aspect of will.

Falling in love, as we all know is giving our heart away to another and they have huge influence over our emotions. Do you see why I posted it?

I am getting a bit older now. I have had two very destructive relationships. Both partners were very selfish and mean with me. I am a very gentle guy and they mistook that for weakness. They found out the hard way that it is not weakness to be gentle, but strength. It is strength of will!

I would never give my heart away to anybody else now. "I keep a close watch on this heart of mine". That is a great song I know also. I want to post it to you, but not ruin your thread so I will pm it to you. The artist is a very bright and intellectual man.

To keep my strong will I have given up on relationships that compromise me. I have had to be ruthless rejecting people, even in my close family, because they were unconsciously destroying me. They really did nearly destroy me. This little song captures all of that in a very neatly pachkaged "torch" song.

Love is a terible loss of emotional independence and self will. If the partnership works though and you have given your emotions away to somebody who respects them then you both become twice the person with twice the ability in many ways. That is why i believe nature has this relationship blueprint in the human and animal species. It gives strength. If it is wrong though it destroys and makes very weak.

I have more free will than I ever had. I feel in control, but still the state could ruin my life at any time. I am at their mercy as we all are. The rich are at our mercy too. They don't see it, but they are.

You have touched on a fundamental crux of the human state, an aspiration, but how much a reality?

It is a pleasure to communicate with you. You have a very fresh intellect and your curiosity is most charming to behold.

The reasoning behind not having free will is similar to letting a murder off from receiving full charges due to the plea of insanity.

If someone kills another person, would you let them off the hook because they are having a bad day or maybe not in the right frame of mind?

If you object to free will, there is no more personal accountability or personal responsibility. No more personal self determination. We are just products of our environment at that point. We can't be held accountable for any of our actions.