Trump possibly commits Witness tampering twice; No one cares

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: BlackJackal

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: BlackJackal

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: BlackJackal

Any person who can not be convinced of something no matter what evidence is presented is a zealot.

Of course I can be convinced trump is guilty, or even that the fbi didnt act as poorly as it seemed.

I have given my evidence as to years upon years of lies and double standards by the intel agencies all over ats and elsewhere.

I do not hold my positions lightly, I think I try to back up my positions with evidence and facts.


But I try to be fair and look at evidence from the other side.




On this op; I just dont see how this is tampering.

And i feel the legal kabuses under Obama I listed were far worse, and many of the poeople concerned about this nsupposed witness tampering have no problem with the problems under Obama.

Fair enough.

Why do you value your own opinion over those of legal experts? If someone with expertise in the field of law states that at least the tweets are most likely witness tampering, on what basis do you reject their opinions?

Because I know there are legal experts that disagree.

And I have seen these news outlets push legal experts one after another that have spun the narrative that the anti trump media wants, and they turned out to be wrong more ofte than not.

How many times have the media pushed so many "legal experts" kike avenattio that told us "This is it! Trumps going down" and were wrong?

How do you know there are legal experts who disagree? Where did you hear that? Where did you read that?

Well lets look at it this way.

So many people hate trump, and legal experts know that this would be a big meal ticket.

Sio if tghis is clearly witness tampering, I would expect one expert after another to be coming out going "This is it, cut and dry, the end of the line for Trump!"

But no, instead we see the same old crowd the abnti trump media pushes out that assured us there is definitive proof Don jr broke tha law, and Trump broke the law in a myriad of ways.

Yet starngely, for it being that cut and dry, nothing ever comes of it.

And I have read lawyers like dershowitz, a hillary b=voter btw lauigh this off.

Harvard professor and Fox News analyst Alan Dershowitz defended President Trump against criticism that he’s “dangled pardons” in front of people by suggesting that the government does the same thing every day.

“It’s so ironic. People complain all the time that President Trump may have dangled pardons in front of people and that constitutes tampering with witnesses and bribery,” he said. “Think of what the government does every day, what prosecutors do every day. They literally bribe witnesses by their freedom, sometimes their life and their money.”

talkingpointsmemo.com...

My point is that you are making assumptions to come to conclusions. You’re assuming that this is just anti-Trump talk without any actual evidence to back that up. You are believing your own opinions over those of individuals who actually work in the field of law. If you were reading a book and a character in that book was constantly dismissing expert advice in favor of their own gut feeling, it probably wouldn’t turn out well for them. There is a chance that the guy who follows his gut instead of the experts will be right but it’s not too high.

Plus, think of the sheer number of stories like this. For every single one of them you are believing your gut, the word of the guy who is accused, or that guys allies. Many of those stories have concrete evidence (Trump tower meeting, Trump Moscow Tower, etc) yet still you maintain the belief that nothing happened.

If you look at my post history you will see that I am pretty hard line on Trump, but that is because I have evaluated all the available data, listened to the experts on both sides, and found that the logic of the argument against Trump is far more valid that the Deep State conspiracy. Does that mean I am right? Nope, not at all. It only means that with the currently available information the most likely outcome is that Donald Trump either wittingly, or unwittingly has worked with the Russian government in one way or another and he doesn’t want anyone to know about it.

However, if you also look at my non-Trump posts you will see that I am not just a leftist who defends anything anti-Trump. Just the other day I called Pelosi out for being petty when she refused to allow Trump to give the State of the Union. Before I come to any opinion I do my best to consider the alternative point of view. That is truly what I wish others on this site would do. Maybe many of you do, however there is a sizable population of dogmatic right wing warriors who will go to their graves before they actually think about a situation from a different point of view. Yes, there are individuals that are the exact same only left-wing but there are very few of them on this site at least. But, that is what denying ignorance is about.

To deny ignorance is not to stay true to a particular world view that promises to fight the shadow government. Denying ignorance does not mean immediately ignoring a report simply because it comes from the main stream media. Denying ignorance is the evaluation of all sides of a debate regardless of what our position happens to be. To deny ignorance we must be willing to admit we were wrong.

a reply to: BlackJackal

After two years of dems trying to nail Trump on a cross for everything from, how many scoops of ice cream he had, to the way he holds his water, who in their right mind would give a rats ass about anything your party has to say? I certainly couldn't care less what any dem says anymore and I'm a very open minded person. People are done with the constant 24/7 whining about BS that the rest of the country doesn't care about.

When people like yourself and others here on ATS, do nothing but post one smear post after another, you start looking like toddlers to the rest of us. Who wants to listen to a bunch of babies whining and crying for the umpteenth time? So tell me again why I should even bother listening to you piss and moan just one more time?

The Boy That Cried Wolf certainly comes to mind.

originally posted by: BlackJackal
You’re assuming that this is just anti-Trump talk without any actual evidence to back that up. You are believing your own opinions over those of individuals who actually work in the field of law. If you were reading a book and a character in that book was constantly dismissing expert advice in favor of their own gut feeling, it probably wouldn’t turn out well for them.

In the world of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Your "experts" that you accuse people of dismissing... let me ask you this, how many shots have they successfully drained in the past 2+ years against Trump? By my count, they're sitting at zero, as evidenced by the fact that not only is he still in office, he's yet to see a single actual count levied against him in any court outside of the kangaroo court the media has set up on their airwaves... and that court only deals in controlled, crafted narratives.

You need new experts, the ones you keep using are broken.

originally posted by: BlackJackal
that is what denying ignorance is about.

To deny ignorance is not to stay true to a particular world view that promises to fight the shadow government. Denying ignorance does not mean immediately ignoring a report simply because it comes from the main stream media. Denying ignorance is the evaluation of all sides of a debate regardless of what our position happens to be. To deny ignorance we must be willing to admit we were wrong.

We're waiting for that admission from you on pretty much every Trump related topic you've opined on.

a reply to: BlackJackal

On phone now so hard for a lengthy reply

I quoted a legal expert, you didn’t reference it

You say trump tower

What was the crime? Getting dirt from Prussians?

I have gone over the law, it says getting a thing of value directly or indirectly

This Hillary’s camp getting dirt indirectly from Steele and Russians are guilty of a crime

Yet no investigation

I know destroying subpoenaed evidence is a crime

Yet these legal experts are silent

I know clapper and comey lying to Congress is a crime

Yet these legal experts are silent

I know Abedin and mills lying to the fbi is a crime

Yet these legal experts are silent

I know the podesta group working with Manafort in failing to register as a foreign lobbyist is a crime

Yet these experts are silent

It is clear they have an agenda

Now on this particular case, we shall see

I posted an expert that doesn’t think it’s a crime

You apparently believe it is

You didn’t care when Obama was saying Hillary was innocent dangling a pardon for her, and neither did these legal experts

But ok, let’s selectively use double standards and act like now we need to enforce this law on tweets

Cause like all of these laws, they are only applicable to trump and people connected to him

originally posted by: Propagandalf

How was that a threat?

Critical thinking man, use critical thinking!!!

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: BlackJackal
You’re assuming that this is just anti-Trump talk without any actual evidence to back that up. You are believing your own opinions over those of individuals who actually work in the field of law. If you were reading a book and a character in that book was constantly dismissing expert advice in favor of their own gut feeling, it probably wouldn’t turn out well for them.

In the world of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Your "experts" that you accuse people of dismissing... let me ask you this, how many shots have they successfully drained in the past 2+ years against Trump? By my count, they're sitting at zero, as evidenced by the fact that not only is he still in office, he's yet to see a single actual count levied against him in any court outside of the kangaroo court the media has set up on their airwaves... and that court only deals in controlled, crafted narratives.

You need new experts, the ones you keep using are broken.

If things go as they are supposed to go we the public would be unaware of the details of the Mueller investigation until it is finished and released by the Attorney General. So we aren’t there yet.

I’m sure your response is something along the lines of something that big would have leaked.

But let me ask you this. Is it possible that Mueller has the goods on Trump to prove he is tied to the Russian government and we don’t know yet? Surely, that must be a possibility in any fair interpretation of the evidence.

So if that is the case, why does it matter whether or not he has been punished? In what way does punishment or lack of punishment in the present in any way effect the possibility of a punishment yet to occur?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
I look forward to the next 6 years. They'll be a great deal of fun, especially in 2 years when the adults reclaim the House and the Dems have zero teeth to accompany their annoying and incessant barking and whining.

Thank you for sharing that bit of info...

Those of us like myself who have zero knowledge of how things actually work in politics, that is very good news.

Had no idea that is how things happen until reading your post...

originally posted by: BlackJackal

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: BlackJackal
You’re assuming that this is just anti-Trump talk without any actual evidence to back that up. You are believing your own opinions over those of individuals who actually work in the field of law. If you were reading a book and a character in that book was constantly dismissing expert advice in favor of their own gut feeling, it probably wouldn’t turn out well for them.

In the world of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Your "experts" that you accuse people of dismissing... let me ask you this, how many shots have they successfully drained in the past 2+ years against Trump? By my count, they're sitting at zero, as evidenced by the fact that not only is he still in office, he's yet to see a single actual count levied against him in any court outside of the kangaroo court the media has set up on their airwaves... and that court only deals in controlled, crafted narratives.

You need new experts, the ones you keep using are broken.

If things go as they are supposed to go we the public would be unaware of the details of the Mueller investigation until it is finished and released by the Attorney General. So we aren’t there yet.

I’m sure your response is something along the lines of something that big would have leaked.

But let me ask you this. Is it possible that Mueller has the goods on Trump to prove he is tied to the Russian government and we don’t know yet? Surely, that must be a possibility in any fair interpretation of the evidence.

So if that is the case, why does it matter whether or not he has been punished? In what way does punishment or lack of punishment in the present in any way effect the possibility of a punishment yet to occur?

It's possible. Anyone reasonable would have to agree to that possibility.

It's also possible, I entertained 3 celebrities tonight. Again, anyone reasonable would have to agree to that possibility.
They are both words, with nothing but claims to back them up.

I would suggest with the way the Democrats have been against Trump; If there was something substantial or provable, if there was any possible way to Indict Trump, he would already be Impeached (Impeachment is just a fancy way of saying Indictment).

I’m sure your response is something along the lines of something that big would have leaked.
But let me ask you this. Is it possible that Mueller has the goods on Trump to prove he is tied to the Russian government and we don’t know yet? Surely, that must be a possibility in any fair interpretation of the evidence.

Rubio said it best..

''It seems the only thing not leaking, is the truth''

''tied to the Russia government'' ? do you really believe Trump is working as a Russian Asset?

the CIA/FBI/DOJ were listening in on Trump and his teams phone calls, texts, emails in the year before the election...
if there was anything at all, it would have come out long ago..

a reply to: BlackJackal

OK, we can play that game. The United States legal system operates on the presumption of innocence. What that means here is, in light of your "we don't know what Mueller has" theory, the prudent man would STFU and not propagate unfound, unprovable accusations and hyperbolic denunciations against Trump that depend entirely on wishful thinking of whatever Mueller has. In absence of Mueller's files, it's all nothing more than wild speculation and, in a matter as serious as this, very much worthy of disdainful rejection from anyone with half a hair's worth of brains and credibility.

That said, this goes well beyond Mueller. Much of what I am talking about isn't even a ball in Mueller's court. In the past 2 years we've heard the following, always from the same jackasses:
His phantom racism
sexual misconduct
antisemitism (against the POTUS with the most Israeli friendly admin in history and a number of Jewish people within his own family!!!)
He's working with Russia OMG!!! He's trying to start WWIII with Russia!!! (which is it?)
Trump trying to gut superfund site funding
Trump is an enemy to gays and lesbians (his best friend is a gay man and he saluted the RNC for applauding gay rights.)
Trump removed a bust of MLK from the White House
"He's literally Hitler" over several policies that later turn out to have been Obama policies Trump decided to keep in place
etc
etc
etc

ITS BULL# That is my issue here. The propagation of bull# by people on the left and then they/you have the gigantic gonads to act offended and shocked when your rambling manifestos of hyperbolic bullcrap aren't given the desired level of contemplation and respect? Those are values which are earned, not freely given. Time fater time after time of reading or hearing accusations and claims vociferously screeched against Trump only to later discover they were as valid as a $3 bill have destroyed the Resistance's credibility. It lies at my feet in tatters... Liars gonna lie and once that fact has been recognized, only a goddamned fool will take anything emanating from one of the liars with anything greater than baleful dismissal.

Dismissed.

Do you have examples of Trump making Pro-Russia moves?

You nitwits always claim this but NEVER back it up except with some ridiculous nonsense that takes about 2.5 seconds to debunk.

Going to back up your claim Axios Bot?

originally posted by: mtnshredder
who in their right mind would give a rats ass about anything your party has to say? I certainly couldn't care less what any dem says anymore and I'm a very open minded person.

My feelings exactly, the credibility has pretty much flown the coop.

Sometimes it almost feels as if we have somehow entered into some kind of liberal "Twilight Zone", where logic no longer applies...

originally posted by: BlackJackal

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: BlackJackal

So honestly I am taking the accusation seriously.

But a few problems.

One, I cant access your washington post article because of a paywall, so if you have any way for me to see it I swear I would read it.

Secondly, from what you posted, regardless of what lawyers say, I dont see how this is witness tampering. He is not threatening anyone, he is giving his opinion on wanting justice served.

Obama weighed in on Hillary innocence, was this tampering? In fact it turns out he knew she was guilty because he knowingly sent emails to her on that unsecured server.

Third, I find it very interesting you say its a shame people dont seem to care, and if it was under Obama they would.

Under Obama, we had far worse than witness tampering.

Some examples.

His doj meeting the spouse of the subject of a criminal investigation on a tarmac in private. that doj refusing to recuse herself, and the forcing the head of the FBI to change his language to politically benefit Hillary and not call it an investigation.

FBI agents admitting in texts that it is laughable that there is no way Lynch will charge any hillary people.

Obamas fbi giving people immunity for no quid pro quo to charge anyone.

Obamas fbi destroying evidence for hillary connected people.

Obamas doj being so biased they allowed hillary to destroy subpoenaed evidence

Obamas agencies spying on his rival parties presidential campaign, by using hillary paid for oppo research.

Obamas purposefully laxing standards to ensure every agency got the unverified dirt on trump, which made it possible to laek to the press.

Ovbama agencies leaking details of private calls of people connected to trump team and unmasking them.



I could go on and on.

So it seems a bit rich when people who have no problem with all of those abuses being upset that the public is not outraged that trump tweeted he thinks stone is great and cohen should be punished.

To get around most paywalls just right click on the link and select open in incognito mode.

Look it’s obvious that you and I fundamentally view the world differently. I understand how you are seeing the world because I used to see the world the same way. Also, you have valid reasons to suspect Trump may be being framed. However there is far more evidence in the weird Russia stuff bucket.

Could I be totally wrong? Could Trump be innocent and I have made an incorrect conclusion on the same evidence that you have made a different conclusion? Yes, I definitely could be wrong. The question I want to know is could your interpretation be wrong? Or are you solid in your position that absolutely nothing will sway your position?

I love how you didn't acknowledge or speak to one thing in Gramblers post. If I didn't know better I would think you were Justin Trudeau.

You have a very similar way of lying, deflecting, ignoring, rambling that Sock Boy does.

To be fair though, morons usually do sound similar.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: mtnshredder
who in their right mind would give a rats ass about anything your party has to say? I certainly couldn't care less what any dem says anymore and I'm a very open minded person.

My feelings exactly, the credibility has pretty much flown the coop.

Sometimes it almost feels as if we have somehow entered into some kind of liberal "Twilight Zone", where logic no longer applies...

When you no longer listen to or contemplate views different to your own you take the path of the ignorance, your confirmation bias then rules your world.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: mtnshredder
who in their right mind would give a rats ass about anything your party has to say? I certainly couldn't care less what any dem says anymore and I'm a very open minded person.

My feelings exactly, the credibility has pretty much flown the coop.

Sometimes it almost feels as if we have somehow entered into some kind of liberal "Twilight Zone", where logic no longer applies...

When you no longer listen to or contemplate views different to your own you take the path of the ignorance, your confirmation bias then rules your world.

While there is truth to that, there is also truth in the boy who cried wolf

Look at the fake news just this week to smear trump

For good sakes reality is being denied to attack kids and defend racists that attacked them just to get at trumo and his supporters

Humans can only take so much of this lying and hatred before they tune out

But having said that, I am still trying to listen and take things seriously

But I understand those who have ran out of patience with the anti trump crowd

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: mtnshredder
who in their right mind would give a rats ass about anything your party has to say? I certainly couldn't care less what any dem says anymore and I'm a very open minded person.

My feelings exactly, the credibility has pretty much flown the coop.

Sometimes it almost feels as if we have somehow entered into some kind of liberal "Twilight Zone", where logic no longer applies...

When you no longer listen to or contemplate views different to your own you take the path of the ignorance, your confirmation bias then rules your world.

Agreed.

However the view hasn't changed. It's the same rehashed garbage for two years.

a reply to: BlackJackal

You must be a deranged person,just like the rest of liberals,making crap up then trying to sell it,weak substance

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: mtnshredder
who in their right mind would give a rats ass about anything your party has to say? I certainly couldn't care less what any dem says anymore and I'm a very open minded person.

My feelings exactly, the credibility has pretty much flown the coop.

Sometimes it almost feels as if we have somehow entered into some kind of liberal "Twilight Zone", where logic no longer applies...

When you no longer listen to or contemplate views different to your own you take the path of the ignorance, your confirmation bias then rules your world.

For good sakes reality is being denied to attack kids and defend racists that attacked them just to get at trumo and his supporters

Humans can only take so much of this lying and hatred before they tune out

That has to be one of the most insane turn of events I’ve ever seen in my lifetime, it’s unprecedented. You literally have thousand of people collaborating together in a somewhat cordinated attack on a few HS stundents, that didn’t do a damn thing wrong. All this after learning the truth and their still going FMJ.

You really can’t make this snip up.