New York legislature votes to legalize abortion up to birth, let non-doctors commit abortions

originally posted by: CynConcepts

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: TinySickTears

originally posted by: CynConcepts

So I am guessing you have no problem with those parents who decide to kill their children since it is their choice, not your problem, and you would never do that? No biggy, no reason to shame them nor punish them too right?

you are talking about people killing people

not the same as abortion

So I don't guess a "bundle of cells" is a baby (people) until it's outside the womb....

That is what is so scary about this kind of thinking. Every living thing is a bundle of cells...where they draw the line currently is in utero...what if that line continues to move? That newborn or toddler cannot fend for itself...raising children has financially and emotionally draining...or the other end of spectrum...someone disabled or elderly?

Thinking about it...didn't that view hold some weight in German History?

If you are not in a mental, financial, emotional, whatever state you can think of, to care for an infant, then you shouldn't be participating in the reproductive process.

all it does is update's NY state laws to be closer to the Roe v. Wade decision...
like many states, NY is preparing, just in case Roe is overturned and it reverts back to state law. federal laws that prohibit or limit late term abortions would still be in effect, so I don't really believe that it would make it legal to abort babies that close to birth.

static1.squarespace.com...

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: queenofswords
but mental, psychological, and social well-being.

Then why are they putting themselves in the position to face pregnancy in the first place? Abortion isn't and will never be a viable method of birth control.

Good question. I don't think aborting an 7th, 8th, or 9th month baby is going to be a common thing or regular occurrence, but just the fact that it can be done if the woman wants it done, is disturbing.

Here is one scenario where I can see SOME women doing this...The pregnancy is bobbing along fine, the relationship is shaky between the mother and baby daddy though. At, say, 8 months along, the woman finds out her guy has been cheating on her and is actually in love with someone else. She becomes enraged, develops a hatred for what she is carrying inside, and decides in a moment of uncertainty, fear, and anger that she can't psychologically deal with a child, much less his child. Bam! She goes to a "licensed healthcare practitioner" (who will get paid for the abortion), pleads for the sake of her sanity, and voila! Dead baby.

ETA: And, BTW, the baby daddy has absolutely no say in the ordered death of his child.

originally posted by: dawnstar
all it does is update's NY state laws to be closer to the Roe v. Wade decision...
like many states, NY is preparing, just in case Roe is overturned and it reverts back to state law. federal laws that prohibit or limit late term abortions would still be in effect, so I don't really believe that it would make it legal to abort babies that close to birth.

static1.squarespace.com...

Federal law is supreme to state law, no?

I haven't read all the posts, but does this also mean that a murder will not be charged with a double homicide for killing a pregnant mother even if the birth is days from happening?

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: dawnstar
all it does is update's NY state laws to be closer to the Roe v. Wade decision...
like many states, NY is preparing, just in case Roe is overturned and it reverts back to state law. federal laws that prohibit or limit late term abortions would still be in effect, so I don't really believe that it would make it legal to abort babies that close to birth.

static1.squarespace.com...

Federal law is supreme to state law, no?

Not at all. State law is to be more or less restrictive than federal law.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
So I don't guess a "bundle of cells" is a baby (people) until it's outside the womb....

Not many people share your view.

Most countries with laws on abortion take a different view. Time limits in law are related to the typical viability of a foetus and accepted morality. Most people and societies think that at some point a foetus reaches a point when it should not be discarded so casually.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
I haven't read all the posts, but does this also mean that a murder will not be charged with a double homicide for killing a pregnant mother even if the birth is days from happening?

If I read it right, indeed it does mean that. Not a double homicide!

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: EternalSolace
So I don't guess a "bundle of cells" is a baby (people) until it's outside the womb....

Not many people share your view.

Most countries with laws on abortion take a different view. Time limits in law are related to the typical viability of a foetus and accepted morality. Most people and societies think that at some point a foetus reaches a point when it should not be discarded so casually.

The problem I personally find is that the mortality rate, in an infant/toddler, is unbelievably high in the hands of first responders. The issue is that first responders strive for the impossible as doctors care about their death/loss numbers.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
I haven't read all the posts, but does this also mean that a murder will not be charged with a double homicide for killing a pregnant mother even if the birth is days from happening?

What a stupid post. You know just as well as anyone else that the subject who kills a woman in any stage of pregnancy can be charged with fetal homicide.

originally posted by: TinySickTears


you are talking about people killing people

not the same as abortion

It comes down to when is it unacceptable? 2nd or 3rd trimester? 5 mins before birth? After birth but cord isn't cut yet? At some point it stops being a fetus and is considered "people".

I think most would agree that if the baby can live outside of the womb it is most likely unacceptable past that point and we see babies born at 7 months and even earlier.

a reply to: UKTruth

only when either there's a risk to the mother's health or life, or a non-viable fetus (a fetus that won't survive outside the womb anyways).
and by the way.... at the moment, people who find themselves in that kind of position have only a few options to turn to because there's only a couple doctors that will perform them... don't believe any are in NY. and those who need the procedure usually end up having to borrow money from anyone and everyone they can find to actually be able to afford it. even then abortions that close to birth is very rare, and usually involves children with severe defects that will not live.
I mean, use some common sense, why would a women go 8 months pregnant just to decide that she doesn't want the child when it's much cheaper if it's done much earler and doesn't include a trip across the country to get??

a reply to: UKTruth
ya, and like I said, I do believe there are federal laws that would prohibit the abortion of a 8 month fetus unless there is risks to the mother or a non-viable fetus...
so, no this law will not allow it to happen!

originally posted by: EternalSolace


What a stupid post. You know just as well as anyone else that the subject who kills a woman in any stage of pregnancy can be charged with fetal homicide.

Is it stupid???

The State Of New York Rules That Women Can Get Late Term Abortions For Any Reason, And That Killing An Unborn Child Is Not Murder.

originally posted by: dawnstar
ya, and like I said, I do believe there are federal laws that would prohibit the abortion of a 8 month fetus unless there is risks to the mother or a non-viable fetus...
so, no this law will not allow it to happen!

I would need to ask what risks? What risks are there since you would still need to remove either a dead or live baby?

Typical late term abortions is to pull the baby out except for the head. Jam scissors into the back of the scull to make a hole into the brain then jam a suction tube in the hole and suck out the brain. After all that is done then remove the whole body from the mother. Same with cesarian section birth.

a reply to: Xtrozero

100%
makes sense if the baby can survive outside then we can call it a person.

im not down with 9 month old babies being aborted. not talking about that because i am not flying off the handle like i am convinced this is going to be happening left and right.

reads about the same as it always has been to me save for the part if you kill a pregnant woman you are not charged with 2 murders.
to that part of the bill i really have no opinion either way.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: UKTruth
ya, and like I said, I do believe there are federal laws that would prohibit the abortion of a 8 month fetus unless there is risks to the mother or a non-viable fetus...
so, no this law will not allow it to happen!

Are you one of those that may not understand their expanded meaning of 'risk to the health' of the mother?

It does not limit "health" to physical or disease issues. It has stretched the meaning to include mental, psychological, familial, and/or social well-being issues.

So, if a woman's familial or psychological conditions change, and she decides she no longer wants to be the mother of this baby, she can declare mental anguish and pay to have it killed by a professional "healthcare practitioner" all the way up to just before his/her birth.

a reply to: queenofswords

From another point of view. If the relationship failed or the dad bailed, what would be the ultimate reward from the females perspective for keeping the baby? 18 years of child support seems like a good motivator for revenge. What are the current stats? 1 in 25 fathers are found to not be the biological parent. I haven't heard that much outcry from females on this disturbing trend, I wonder why?

You know...I can actually see some women doing this to punish or inflict deep pain on the baby's daddy.

Not all women are kindhearted devoted motherly types. There are some femiNazis out there that would probably kill the emerging life within them the moment they find out it's a boy. Their "mental/psychological" health may cause them to not want to risk the possibility it may be toxic with its masculinity. Crazy people out there nowadays!

originally posted by: queenofswords
a reply to: TinySickTears

I don't know if you're male or female, but I would bet dollars to donuts you are not and never will be a loving mother or a father. One cannot say what you said and have that "caring" gene that instinctively knows the preciousness of an emerging life.

IMO, a woman that would have an abortion at this late stage other than for the death of the baby in the womb, should be a serious candidate for sterilization. She does not need to become a mother....ever.

www.theguardian.com...

stories of 3 women who NEEDED a late term abortion......how they have to make really quick decision because of time running out due to current laws, while trying to get tests done to get a more complete picture and an accurate diagnosis...THESE are MOST of the women who have late term abortions