USAF Actually Buying F-15Xs?

Now they're claiming industrial base considerations.

www.defensenews.com...

a reply to: Zaphod58

So the tankers and new trainers aren't enough for Boeing atm???

a reply to: Woody510

The tankers wouldn't be, as they're built in Washington. But you'd think the big new order for Hornet upgrades and the trainer would be.

It appears Shanahan was never involved in this decision and that the Air Force simply wants numbers and number that work now.

breakingdefense.com... m_medium=email&utm_content=71059323&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--bRyQZ9alfNYH6a-lz0vmBPkyzDS7YVQpFPWxatXgl-RH5TfI4TppcVsI4ojYXaZ0Q74Hr_z52oFENDNCmOopI0rvqxg&_hsmi= 71059323

I think it is a reasonable decision and one that if we ever have to go to war with a serious adversary we will be glad we made.

I must admit, the F-35 fans really are sort of tunnel visioned - like I said, it is a great aircraft, but it does not fill all roles. And maybe some day it will be able to - but we should not wait 15 years for that to happen. There are needs that exist now.

And I am also worried, very worried, that the lifespan of the F-35 does not seem to be anywhere near what was promised.

a reply to: Fools

Early aircraft rarely are.

a reply to: Fools

... and that the Air Force simply wants numbers and number that work now. 

They wanted them so badly that they didn't have them in their budget request...

the lifespan of the F-35 does not seem to be anywhere near what was promised.

*must not get dragged in...

originally posted by: Fools
I must admit, the F-35 fans really are sort of tunnel visioned - like I said, it is a great aircraft, but it does not fill all roles. And maybe some day it will be able to - but we should not wait 15 years for that to happen. There are needs that exist now.

So building at best 150 F-15X over the next five to ten years will solve these issues how?

Dont be so quick putting people in boxes. Tunnel vision my ass. The JSF programs sucks. There was a great case to be made for cancelling it ten years ago in favor of advanced F-22s and additional legacy jets. In fact i said so back then. But this opportunity has passed and we're stuck with the program, like it or not.

The F-35 fandom is so great sometimes I wonder if Lockheed pays people to post here. :-)

So here is what the summary appears to be. F-35's cannot fill the role of the F-15 C/D models. There is somewhat of an agreement on that. However, even though that is the purpose of that move it is unacceptable and we should buy more F-35's. And the reason is that at some point the F-35 MIGHT be able to do the role. No one knows when or how but they do know that the guys in the Air force making the decision are wrong.

That's pretty much it right?

"Air Force Magazine recently inquired to Air Force Undersecretary Matt Donovan about the F-15X. Although he wouldn't address the initiative directly, he did paint a picture of the logic behind it:

“History being what it is, and because we never quite got to the procurement ramp we needed to” on the F-35, “we’re in a bit of a pickle,” Donovan said. “We don’t have the capacity we need” in the fighter force. Donovan’s speech to the AFA audience focused heavily on the need to increase the size of the Air Force to 386 combat squadrons in order to fulfill the National Defense Strategy of engaging China and Russia in Great Power Competition.

He noted that, under original plans, USAF expected to have 736 F-35s by now, but “we have 174, ... so … we need to increase our fighter procurement, replacement rate.”"

From:
www.thedrive.com...

a reply to: Fools

Precisely define exactly what the F-15C does that you don't think the F-35 can sufficiently accomplish.

Unit cost? F-15X a little more expensive than late block F-35
Cost per fhour: higher than F-35
RCS, EW, ECM: advantage F-35
Range: advantage F-35
Logistical footprint: F-35


Advantages:
Two seats? Could be useful for LCAAT, etc, sure.
Carriage of 24 AAM vs 16. That's useful
Potentially larger array fitted to F-15 because it has more room


None of the advantages come to play unless it is survivable. Which, has yet to be demonstrated.

a reply to: Fools

The people that hate the F-35 are even funnier. I wonder if Boeing pays them to post here sometimes.

The F-35 can currently do the F-15 job, but there aren't enough of them. In an effort to "protect the industrial base", they're buying F-15s that won't be able to penetrate a modern A2AD bubble without serious help. But according to everyone that thinks this is a great idea, they're only going to be used in the homeland defense mission, which is why they're buying the EX, with a hefty ground attack role.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yeah, strangely this is the first I read about the EX version. I do hope they drop the X and just go with standard F-15F and F-15G or along those lines. Obviously the X is a marketing ploy.

Here is my problem as a defender of this (the F-15) program. I do not think that the F-35 is "bad" I rarely even detract from it but I do see it has had numerous flaws. Many say it is a "new" aircraft. How long ago did the first F-35A first fly? Was it already a decade ago? Maybe more?

If anything, Lockheed not being able to deliver on time and as expected is the real reason for this move by the airforce (and by the Navy as well).

I wish the F-35 does as well as people say. I hope it gets to that point at some time. At the same time, I don't want this country defended improperly because of promises from Lockheed that on this particular aircraft have been lacking. And have been for a long time.

originally posted by: Fools
"Air Force Magazine recently inquired to Air Force Undersecretary Matt Donovan about the F-15X. Although he wouldn't address the initiative directly, he did paint a picture of the logic behind it:

“History being what it is, and because we never quite got to the procurement ramp we needed to” on the F-35, “we’re in a bit of a pickle,” Donovan said. “We don’t have the capacity we need” in the fighter force. Donovan’s speech to the AFA audience focused heavily on the need to increase the size of the Air Force to 386 combat squadrons in order to fulfill the National Defense Strategy of engaging China and Russia in Great Power Competition.

He noted that, under original plans, USAF expected to have 736 F-35s by now, but “we have 174, ... so … we need to increase our fighter procurement, replacement rate.”"

From:
www.thedrive.com...

Funny how he doesn't mention the KC 46 and what an amazing job Boeing are doing with that.

a reply to: Fools

Of course it does. You're talking about an aircraft that is far more complicated than any aircraft ever built, including the F-22. It has 18 million lines of code to integrate, which is why they rolled the software out in batches instead of trying to roll it out at once.

The problem isn't solely with Lockheed. The Pentagon put some unrealistic expectations on them as well. Putting three aircraft in one guaranteed delays in development and rollout.

The F-35 timeline is almost identical to the F-22 timeline as far as first flight to introduction. The F-22 first flew in September of 1997, and was introduced in December of 2005. The F-35A first flew in December 2006, with introduction of the B in July 2015, the A in August 2016, and the C this year (the Navy chose not to declare IOC until the 3F software was installed in all aircraft).

How about this for an argument: The Russian Air Force has built roughly 370 combat aircraft in the last 6 years. The USAF has acquired ONLY F-35's in limited numbers in that same time. About 170. So why is a country that has about 1/10th (or probably much less) the budget able to field that and we cannot? Also, I am sure that China is beating the Russian numbers or at least matching them.

I do not care how good the F-35 is, I do not think we can field enough to matter at this point and time in history. Why put an entire nation in any jeopardy at all if you don't have to? Especially if you have the largest budget on the planet to do so? It baffles me why any of you opposed to it would be as opposed to it as you are.

russiamil.wordpress.com...


I didn't feel like looking for a china procurement link because frankly it would just be the same thing.

a reply to: Fools

Because its peace time manufacturing rate. If the Sh*t hit the fan I don't think any country could keep up with Americas construction rate.

a reply to: Fools

Because the Pentagon chose not to enter full rate production until they complete IOT&E.

Russia still operates an air force far smaller than ours, but is still becoming more capable. They're buying more aircraft, but most of those are too replace older aircraft, just the way the new F-15s will replace the older ones. Both Russia and China are in the same position we're in, with a lot of older aircraft being replaced before they can start building up new squadrons. Their new aircraft are far more capable than older aircraft in their inventory, but not as capable as fifth gen aircraft.

Last year, Lockheed delivered 91 F-35s to all customers. This year, they're on track for 130. Once IOT&E completes and the block buys begin, production rate will jump, as they'll start buying multiple contracts instead of one at a time. Foreign partners have already begun, with contracts for LRIP 12-14 in the works.

originally posted by: Woody510
a reply to: Fools

Because its peace time manufacturing rate. If the Sh*t hit the fan I don't think any country could keep up with Americas construction rate.

Hopefully it won't be China. I am not sure how long it takes to set up rare earth metals mining - but I would bet it would at least take months.

Software code is useless without the hardware to run it on. But that is another discussion.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Fools

Because the Pentagon chose not to enter full rate production until they complete IOT&E.

Russia still operates an air force far smaller than ours, but is still becoming more capable. They're buying more aircraft, but most of those are too replace older aircraft, just the way the new F-15s will replace the older ones. Both Russia and China are in the same position we're in, with a lot of older aircraft being replaced before they can start building up new squadrons. Their new aircraft are far more capable than older aircraft in their inventory, but not as capable as fifth gen aircraft.

Last year, Lockheed delivered 91 F-35s to all customers. This year, they're on track for 130. Once IOT&E completes and the block buys begin, production rate will jump, as they'll start buying multiple contracts instead of one at a time. Foreign partners have already begun, with contracts for LRIP 12-14 in the works.

As always, I appreciate your knowledge in the area. I do wish I would have made a bet that this would happen though. The guys in the USAF are men and women that want to win. And I think they think that we are behind in replacing aircraft and need to fix that ASAP if we want to win any future engagements.

I suppose to many, the F-35 is that weapon, but to me it seems to be slow to field as well as still having many issues that cause concern even among its champions within the Air Force.


Whatever one thinks, it will be interesting to see how this entry into the fleet will do. Will Boeing be able to deliver what they promise?

:-)

a reply to: Fools

The F-35 still has issues, but so do the F-15, and F-16. They've got most of the serious issues either fixed or on the way to being fixed.

We're well behind on replacing aircraft, because of the idiotic decision made in 1991 that future combat aircraft would only be stealth aircraft. If we had bought newer 4th Gen aircraft then, it would have made sense. Now, not nearly as much.