DEA and FDA to soon rule on Kratom

a reply to: Blaine91555

Then I suppose me any you never had disagreement

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: Blaine91555

Then I suppose me any you never had disagreement

I suspected as much and I should have been clearer up front.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: underwerks

Thanks, that's helpful info.

Are there any double blind studies showing how effective it is as an aid to quitting opioids?

You see part of my problem is that when addicts seek help on the streets, it just does not end well. Let's be honest here, the real desire is to use it for other reasons.

If it turns out to be safe after study, its fine with me. Until then, it's a risk. I see nothing about long term use.

Marijuana for instance is known to be safe and I have no problem with it and in fact voted in favor of it. This though, is something quite different. Little is known about it's long term effects or even its short term effects.

Here’s a good overview that was done before the government decided to demonize this plant: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...#!po=5.20000

And here’s a study from 1975 about its traditional use by people in Southeast Asia:
PDF

Another thing that is interesting to note, is that it wasn’t made illegal in Thailand until the government saw it was cutting into their then-legalized opium profits. Which seems to be the current case here in the U.S. as well.

I agree that addicts seeking help on the streets is a problem, which is why I stand behind Kratom. Being able to buy Kratom in stores and online keeps people from being exposed to the dangerous street culture that makes dangerous drugs so dangerous.

originally posted by: Blaine91555

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: Blaine91555

Then I suppose me any you never had disagreement

I suspected as much and I should have been clearer up front.

That's what civil discussion is for, to find out the substance at hand, nothing wrong with that.

Let's just hope they're sensible and make decisions for the people, not the profiteers.

originally posted by: skunkape23
Buy some cuttings and a grow light and grow your own.

If I lived in Florida, I would do that. That’s really the only place in America that has the climate for it. And it takes around 10 years for a Kratom tree to grow to the point that its useful.

If that wasn’t the case I’m sure we’d be looking at some kind of domestic production already. I really wish it wasn’t a tropical plant.

a reply to: underwerks

Thanks for the link.

There have been different studies showing serious conditions after repeated administration as elevated blood pressure, nephrotoxic effects [41], impaired cognition and behaviour [42, 43], dependence potential [42], and hepatic failure [41, 44]. The onset of liver injury is described to occur within 2 to 8 weeks of starting regular use of kratom powder or tablets, with symptoms of fatigue, nausea, pruritus, and dark urine followed by jaundice [41, 44]. The pattern of liver injury seems to be typically cholestatic and can be severe with serum bilirubin levels rising above 20 mg/dL [44]. Kratom constituents were also identified to be potentially cardiotoxic, ideally potentiating Torsade de Pointes through inhibition of rapid delayed rectifier potassium current (IKr) in human cardiomyocytes [45].

It appears that it has the potential to cause some serious issues when overused or used regularly.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: Cravens


Discussing it without discussing the possible negative effects of it though is just promoting it, not discussing it.

Ah snap, we can hug it out over this. Totally agree.

I mentioned earlier, I was very circumspect about it being anything near a panacea for opiate addiction — there’s a reason it’s so devastating and any critical thinker would be alarmed by anyone selling it as such. Could it be part of the ‘maintenance’ tool kit? Yeah, it seems to be a serious candidate...but there’s no way a plant that cost cents on the gram can ‘rehabilitate’ a $250/day opiate addict.

And if it does/can, you can best believe it’ll never see the light of day. The eventual listing indicates someone is losing money.

Does the DEA need to be knocking down doors of headshops and Lebanese bodegas to keep us safe (you seem to be articulating a public health ‘argument’)? Or did Purdue Pharma sysnthesize a powerful ‘maintenance’ alkaloid from Kratom realizing the open market has them over a barrel??

By all means preach harm reduction and/or safe use, but at least come correct. That nonsense about the deaths related to Kratom is not coming correct. It’s parroting.

they will ban it

cant have one of the most addictive drugs bigest hurdle to quit be made easy

its sad this plant really dose seem to help people quit and stay clean

yes theres a risk thell replace 1 drug with another but atleast with kratom its not easy to od with opiates well the diferance between being high and dead is small toss in synthedics 100x stronger and that margin of error is even smaller

whoever saied using a drugs to cure a drug addiction is bad you should watch a addict detox without drugs its not pritty

americanaddictioncenters.org...

www.youtube.com...

www.imdb.com...

therenegadepharmacist.com...

isum.com...

www.organicfacts.net...

a reply to: underwerks

I know a little bit about this *cough*

At 4 head shops within 15 miles, they sell potent kratom extract in capsules, brand name of course. $20 for a pack of two (.5 grams per cap), $30 for 3, the 5 pack is $45. 2 of them will floor someone without an opioid tolerance, we're talking full euphoria then nod out, akin to morphine chased with an energy drink. This is because it has more of the 7-hydroxy-mitragnyne in it, the more potent alkaloid with a fraction of one percent in each plant compared to other alkaloids and in my opinion the only one craftable into medication. Why use weaker alkaloids when making an effective, controlled pain medication. Anyways, they use 100:1 extracts and more with different techniques to refine it. That's 100 grams of leaf to make 1 gram of extract. Can't make extracts of a chemical illegal without making the substance itself illegal. Anyways..

Daily kratom use in any form long enough will form a physical dependence and withdrawal akin to an opiate. Regular leaf not so bad, maybe comparable to codeine. Extracts, while very expensive, are honestly comparable to lower doses (high enough to get someone without tolerance itchy and nodding) of hydrocodone or oxycodone. Withdrawal from extract is the same as an opioid.

My opinion? The regular leaf isn't worth choking it down, the extract is nice but too expensive and addictive. Even a seasoned fully functional opioid addict who can weather withdrawals would buy it every day for the rest of their lives if they had the money. You can literally stop a moderate opioid physical addiction by taking it because it's completely cross tolerant, mitragnyne and 7-hydroxy-mitragnyne are full mu receptor agonists, the withdrawals are too.

a reply to: underwerks

I hope they keep kratom legal. It is hard enough to get it where I live as it is, and my wife finds it helpful for the severe diabetic related painful peripheral neuropathy in her feet. Her feet burn at night, or at least to her they feel like they are burning, and kratom has lessened that enough that she can go to sleep most nights when she takes it. She doesn't notice any other effects from it, but I do not think she takes huge doses either. I sleep better too, when her feet don't hurt, because she kicks them around when they are hurting. Why would they make kratom illegal? I mean, if it is illegal, I would still try to obtain some anyway, but the illegality would certainly add more hurdles to the process, the threat of penalty if caught, and the dangerous criminal element to transactions....

On a side note,

Sometimes I wonder if the people who champion this cause use it regularly, know about the pharmacology of it, or have adequate knowledge of brain chemistry for that matter (hint: a lot of experience with what you talk about helps).

If you do take it daily or multiple times weekly for at least 6-12 months or preferably for this example longer, I can see why you're against it being criminalized, lol. Being sick sucks, so does being in pain. Hey, I am too. A kratom buzz is very nice, an extract buzz is pharmaceutical level. If I hurt something short of a broken bone and had the money, I'd want it to be available because I don't make enough for health insurance anyway. I have problems that when I used to be able to afford a doctor and prescriptions, I could get better. It's tough but it's life.

It's not a miracle cure. Yes, you can transfer your dependency to a legal substance that has a ceiling on the dosage soto speak but someone's dope sick and can't see the plug for a 20 bag, they can always hit the head shop to be able to sleep without the runs and sweats.. until it wears off.

a reply to: Fowlerstoad

You know it's all over the internet, hundreds of vendors right? The really potent extract (Ultra Enhanced Indo, Gold Reserve, 100x, 50x, etc) is $30-$50 for 5 grams (or 10 capsules). For an opiate naive researcher (it's for research purposes only, read the package), 1 gram is the equivalent of a couple of hydrocodone or a perc. USPS delivered all day, usually shipped from the pacific coast.

originally posted by: r0xor
a reply to: underwerks

I know a little bit about this *cough*

At 4 head shops within 15 miles, they sell potent kratom extract in capsules, brand name of course. $20 for a pack of two (.5 grams per cap), $30 for 3, the 5 pack is $45. 2 of them will floor someone without an opioid tolerance, we're talking full euphoria then nod out, akin to morphine chased with an energy drink. This is because it has more of the 7-hydroxy-mitragnyne in it, the more potent alkaloid with a fraction of one percent in each plant compared to other alkaloids and in my opinion the only one craftable into medication. Why use weaker alkaloids when making an effective, controlled pain medication. Anyways, they use 100:1 extracts and more with different techniques to refine it. That's 100 grams of leaf to make 1 gram of extract. Can't make extracts of a chemical illegal without making the substance itself illegal. Anyways..

Daily kratom use in any form long enough will form a physical dependence and withdrawal akin to an opiate. Regular leaf not so bad, maybe comparable to codeine. Extracts, while very expensive, are honestly comparable to lower doses (high enough to get someone without tolerance itchy and nodding) of hydrocodone or oxycodone. Withdrawal from extract is the same as an opioid.

My opinion? The regular leaf isn't worth choking it down, the extract is nice but too expensive and addictive. Even a seasoned fully functional opioid addict who can weather withdrawals would buy it every day for the rest of their lives if they had the money. You can literally stop a moderate opioid physical addiction by taking it because it's completely cross tolerant, mitragnyne and 7-hydroxy-mitragnyne are full mu receptor agonists, the withdrawals are too.

Spoken like a real deal opiate addict. More of this is needed in the Kratom conversation — Underwerks would have you believe you could ‘cold turkey’ a legit opiate addiction with $10/day of Kratom.

That’s naive, dangerous, and borderline malfeasance.

Glad you spoke up. The pie is always in the sky...because you can never reach it. Call it a mitigation or maintenance conduit, but don’t ever intimate it’s anything close to a cure all — without doubt that poster has done a disservice to Kratom’s harm reduction and safe use potential.

This is ridiculous......

Like weed and perhaps even to a lesser degree it makes no sense to do this....

Well..... Unless you're afraid to lose money on your prescriptions racket...

Sick and tired of pharma telling us what we can and can't do.....

Your job is to test and tell us what, in your OPINION, could be dangerous or not advised.....

NOT to dictate whether we choose to partake.... That was your original function and all else is over reach and needs to be reigned in.....

Slowey, wise people in states are making marijuana legal why do these morons have to make another substance milder than marijuana illegal.

Don't they ever learn

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: Slinki
This is going to undermine the efforts of so many who are trying to stay away from opioids. I hate that something like this could stand in the world we live today.
They are so wrong.
Screw the FDA, DEA, and Big Pharma. Aren't they rich enough off the backs of patients-turned-addicts? Makes me so angry.

Works great for alcoholism too, although no one ever brings it up!

My eldest daughter is an alcoholic and is trying Kratom. It really does reduce the craving; while taking it, she went from the shakes and jonesing for a drink by about 2 pm and drinking 2 pints of spirits per day to being ok till 8 or 9 pm and drinking a half-pint or less. Amazing difference.

originally posted by: Cravens

originally posted by: r0xor
a reply to: underwerks

I know a little bit about this *cough*

At 4 head shops within 15 miles, they sell potent kratom extract in capsules, brand name of course. $20 for a pack of two (.5 grams per cap), $30 for 3, the 5 pack is $45. 2 of them will floor someone without an opioid tolerance, we're talking full euphoria then nod out, akin to morphine chased with an energy drink. This is because it has more of the 7-hydroxy-mitragnyne in it, the more potent alkaloid with a fraction of one percent in each plant compared to other alkaloids and in my opinion the only one craftable into medication. Why use weaker alkaloids when making an effective, controlled pain medication. Anyways, they use 100:1 extracts and more with different techniques to refine it. That's 100 grams of leaf to make 1 gram of extract. Can't make extracts of a chemical illegal without making the substance itself illegal. Anyways..

Daily kratom use in any form long enough will form a physical dependence and withdrawal akin to an opiate. Regular leaf not so bad, maybe comparable to codeine. Extracts, while very expensive, are honestly comparable to lower doses (high enough to get someone without tolerance itchy and nodding) of hydrocodone or oxycodone. Withdrawal from extract is the same as an opioid.

My opinion? The regular leaf isn't worth choking it down, the extract is nice but too expensive and addictive. Even a seasoned fully functional opioid addict who can weather withdrawals would buy it every day for the rest of their lives if they had the money. You can literally stop a moderate opioid physical addiction by taking it because it's completely cross tolerant, mitragnyne and 7-hydroxy-mitragnyne are full mu receptor agonists, the withdrawals are too.

Spoken like a real deal opiate addict. More of this is needed in the Kratom conversation — Underwerks would have you believe you could ‘cold turkey’ a legit opiate addiction with $10/day of Kratom.

That’s naive, dangerous, and borderline malfeasance.

Glad you spoke up. The pie is always in the sky...because you can never reach it. Call it a mitigation or maintenance conduit, but don’t ever intimate it’s anything close to a cure all — without doubt that poster has done a disservice to Kratom’s harm reduction and safe use potential.

You can use Kratom to interrupt a “real deal” opiate habit, I’m speaking from personal experience. It isn’t naive, it’s a well informed and tested assertion that you clearly have no experience with.

Its painfully obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about. Please educate yourself and stop spreading misinformation.

a reply to: underwerks

I’m educated. I’m a realist.

Here’s to hoping they schedule it, and you and your lovely Kratom commiserate over the restless leg, sneezing, eye watering, weeks of periodic sleep, euphoria, deep depression, anxiety...and if you are lucky, bubble guts.

Good luck finding any sympathy.

P.S. Here’s to hoping you don’t get a ‘hot shot’ and end up worm food — you know you’re gonna be chasing that dragon after Kratom is gone...fentanyl for dinner in a month?

#JunkiesRationalizeEverything
#JunkiesComeAtThoseWhoSupportHarmReduction
#JunkiesWantLessEducationButMoreDope