BREAKING: Active Shooter Thousand Oaks

originally posted by: AScrubWhoDied

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: AScrubWhoDied



What pass? Needing a drivers license? Needed to be of age? Needed to pass a test to certify you know what the # you're doing while drive?

I don't need to do any of that to go acquire a tool designed to only kill.

Funny how that works huh?

Are you a liar or just ignorant?

So any age can by a firearm?

Cool I really wanted a new shotgun.

I will just send my 8 year old cousin in to buy it for me.

My bad, there is an age restriction, what else?

Ok so you were being hyperbolic about that.

In addition, pawn shops are required to follow all federal and state laws. Many do have background checks.

a reply to: AScrubWhoDied


I have never had more than a couple speeding tickets and I have had to wait days to buy a gun before, also never saw anyone use an 800 hundred number.


Every gun purchase I made, involved filling out my information on a computer before it was sent off for verification.

Don't understand why nobody is studying or talking about the psychology of the mass killer. It has basically become the evolution from the serial killer in our society, yet we've given up trying to understand why it is happening in favor of politicizing events to achieve our own myopic aims.

Jumping on the gun control argument after every shooting event is an act of selfishness. You are not even attempting to address the real issue as to why the event took place. You are simply attempting to compartmentalize it so that perhaps these people who carry out these horrific acts just end up stabbing only one person in the neck and it doesn't make the national news so you don't have to hear about it and can carry on with you and your life like this sick individual isn't still out there.

Why these events are happening isn't that big of a mystery either. Again, their psychology isn't all that different than that of the classic serial killer. It is always about control. It is no coincidence that these events started popping up on the landscape around the same time our sociology began to change to favor of the collective and dismiss the importance of the nuclear family. Now I'm not saying the collective isn't important, so don't get sidetracked on that issue - but there needs to more of a delicate balance of the two. One is clearly encroaching too much on the other in our modern society. We've gone too headstrong the other way and at the same time the state has become increasingly more authoritarian and omnipresent in our lives. And this is a result of both political parties, not a left/right thing at all. George W. Bush did more to put this monster in place more than any other recent president with his ill-conceived policies after 9/11.

The problem is when you have this in a society there are certain types of people that kind of short circuit when they have a loss or conflict of agency. You can just take everyday examples of this in the form of the rebelling teenager of a nuclear family and extrapolate that to a society at large and you can kind of see how that mentality can escalate and take us to where we are now. And anyone that has ever parented a child with mental or emotional issues can tell you that it is a full-time job. Now imagine that child brought up to see society at large as a sort of second family and getting in return not only an overbearing presence, but yet somehow simultaneously largely uncaring. Why do you suppose that when one of these types of states and societies comes into existence the very first thing they do is seize firearms? People misinterpret this as some sort of totalitarian state conspiracy when in actuality it is just about simple compartmentalization of a psychological problem.

Anyway, I'm fully aware that I'm mostly talking in the wind - but just wanted to add this to the discussion.

For the record, I am for most reasonable forms of gun control. I've never quite understood the need for AR-15s in society. However, I'm also aware that they don't necessarily address the problem of the mass killer. I'm also aware that if I were to be trapped in a building that a mass killer strolled into I would much rather prefer to be in that space with someone unlike me that is trained in firearms and is carrying one at the time rather than be stuck in the space with 100 other people like me that don't like firearms and are essentially going to end up a room of dead pacifists.

a reply to: Irishhaf
Good to read you aren't scared of cops as well, ours only really carry crap sticks, maybe one in ten has a taser, and there are two armed response vehicles on duty at any given time in Devon & Cornwall constabulary, the largest geographical police service in England.
Our crims have guns but they only use them with fellow crims, general civilians are usually unaffected, we use knives instead to kill each other. I like it how it is here, if I see some crazy bloke in town with a knife I can use a cafe chair or whatever to defend myself...crazy bloke with gun not so much...guns are traded and rented out illegally in the UK but the requirements are strict, crazy people who might mean the gun is confiscated don't have a chance, same crazy Muslims, the Eastern Europeans would shoot them for even asking lol.

a reply to: Grambler

Again like I said, I don't think taking away guns is even plausible. However, why every citizen is automatically qualified to own a weapon? The person may not have any mental illness, but maybe down on his luck, or hate a specific group of people etc...

I'm advocating making gun ownership an EARNED title instead of an automatic award.

And yes you're very smart, but I think in an effort to not go against the majority (right wingł you say irrational things like, taking away cars and taking away knives etc... This dilution of logic doesn't make sense. Guns are illegal in Australia and people still drive and there's nearly a billion cars in China, and 0 mass car murders... And also guns are incidentally not ingrained in their constitution, and behold, 0 mass shootings... Plenty of drivers.

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: caterpillage
a reply to: Wayfarer

I have a 95 beretta I'll sell you for 100 bucks. It runs and drives fine, and will kill as many people as you can hit with it. It's kind of a death trap to the people in it too, and no background check required what so ever

Why are all these folks shooting up these places then if cars are way easier and more effective means of killing?

Because its easier to kill people with guns, particulaarly in a building.

I concede that.

So then you would just outlaw the tool that is easiest to kill people with.

So ok, lets say we get rid of guns.

Now 5 years from now we check again.

Now killers are using cars the most. So do we now ban cars?

Then five years later its knives.

The point is, once we start banning the tool most used, when do we stop?

I pripose we stop focuing on the tool, and focus more on the type of people that use the tool to kill, and how to help on that end.

I dunno man, sounds a bit like a defeatist attitude. It stops after we correct all the avenue's that make it easy for crazies to kill people. Barricades for cars, etc.

There is a solution to it all, just not the will. Surprisingly, on the whole most 2nd amendment supporters seem to change their tune when they or their own loved ones are the victims of gun violence.

No there is no solution.

There we go. This is what I was looking for. The solution is to actually make guns more prevalent, and more easily accessible. The only result that changes anything is if we are all killed in gun violence.

So you are saying baan guns or we all need to die?

Sounds reasonable.

No I'm saying the only solution that many of the 2nd amendment supporters here on ATS have is the only restriction to be levied is a complete anti-restriction. Somehow more guns will fix everything.......

well I didnt say that.

I do think that gun free zones seem to experince these mass shootings more often.

You didn't say it until you just did it seems; Implying that having guns be more prevalent as the solution.

No i didnt say more guns is the answer.

I said areas where guns are restricted seem to be targeted more.

There is a huge difference

a reply to: JinMI

When he should be forgotten, and buried in an unhallowed grave.

Instead, he gets plastered onto every TV screen in the world, and some delusional soul out there thinks, "Hey, that might be cool, then no one will ever forget me, either."

They used to call 'em copy-cat...

It's a sad, sad world sometimes.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: AScrubWhoDied



What pass? Needing a drivers license? Needed to be of age? Needed to pass a test to certify you know what the # you're doing while drive?

I don't need to do any of that to go acquire a tool designed to only kill.

Funny how that works huh?

Are you a liar or just ignorant?

So any age can by a firearm?

Cool I really wanted a new shotgun.

I will just send my 8 year old cousin in to buy it for me.

Actually, it depends on where you live. The federal minimum age for possession of a handgun is 18 but there's no minimum age for long guns. Skimming the table of state laws here, it looks like there are 7-8 states where there's no state law prohibiting purchase of a long gun by a person under the age of 18.

ETA:

I need to clarify something above. Federal law does prohibit sale of long guns to persons under the age of 18 by *licensed dealers*, it does not however prohibit the sale to minors by anyone else.

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: Grambler

No there is no solution.

No matter how hard we try or what we do, killers will always exist. Period.

Now we can take actions to limit that, but we have to make value judgements between how mcu freedom do we give up for safety.

I agree with this. It's impossible to completely eliminate murder, including mass murder. All we can do is take steps to try to mitigate the threat and those measures need to be carefully balanced against their impact on our civil liberties and way of life.

Everyone tends to panic and demand that "somebody do something" and most of the "solutions" that are proposed are usually unrealistic/undesirable.

And that goes both ways — the people who want to arm everyone because once in a while a "good guy with a gun" stops a crime are at least as wrong as the people who want to disarm everyone because once in a while a lunatic decides to kill people.

Totally agree with all of this.

The truth is we all tend to act out of emotions, and that leads to coming up with simplistic fix all solutions.

And those are often very unpractical and impossible to implement.

originally posted by: roadgravel
a reply to: AScrubWhoDied

Again, you gotta jump through more hoops to get certain certain cars here.

When a person is borrowing 10s of thousands of dollars from a bank it's going to be hoop filled.

Even when you're paying cash you gotta jump through hoops,and that's for domestically sold vehicles.

Now try to get an R34 or something, ha good luck - even if you are paying cash.

a reply to: seagull

100% correct every time they give these people their 15 mins of fame some other person with issues starts to think that might be a good idea.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: AScrubWhoDied


I have never had more than a couple speeding tickets and I have had to wait days to buy a gun before, also never saw anyone use an 800 hundred number.


Every gun purchase I made, involved filling out my information on a computer before it was sent off for verification.

Try going to purchase in a place like Benton Arkansas.

Walk in. Walk out.

I'm advocating making gun ownership an EARNED title instead of an automatic award.

There are people who cannot legal possess a gun but they do. The honor system.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: caterpillage
a reply to: Wayfarer

I have a 95 beretta I'll sell you for 100 bucks. It runs and drives fine, and will kill as many people as you can hit with it. It's kind of a death trap to the people in it too, and no background check required what so ever

Why are all these folks shooting up these places then if cars are way easier and more effective means of killing?

Because its easier to kill people with guns, particulaarly in a building.

I concede that.

So then you would just outlaw the tool that is easiest to kill people with.

So ok, lets say we get rid of guns.

Now 5 years from now we check again.

Now killers are using cars the most. So do we now ban cars?

Then five years later its knives.

The point is, once we start banning the tool most used, when do we stop?

I pripose we stop focuing on the tool, and focus more on the type of people that use the tool to kill, and how to help on that end.

I dunno man, sounds a bit like a defeatist attitude. It stops after we correct all the avenue's that make it easy for crazies to kill people. Barricades for cars, etc.

There is a solution to it all, just not the will. Surprisingly, on the whole most 2nd amendment supporters seem to change their tune when they or their own loved ones are the victims of gun violence.

No there is no solution.

There we go. This is what I was looking for. The solution is to actually make guns more prevalent, and more easily accessible. The only result that changes anything is if we are all killed in gun violence.

So you are saying baan guns or we all need to die?

Sounds reasonable.

No I'm saying the only solution that many of the 2nd amendment supporters here on ATS have is the only restriction to be levied is a complete anti-restriction. Somehow more guns will fix everything.......

well I didnt say that.

I do think that gun free zones seem to experince these mass shootings more often.

You didn't say it until you just did it seems; Implying that having guns be more prevalent as the solution.

No i didnt say more guns is the answer.

I said areas where guns are restricted seem to be targeted more.

There is a huge difference

Really? An area where guns are unrestricted logically would have more guns in it. Correlating areas with more guns as safer is directly implying that the quantity of guns is a direct factor in safety.

originally posted by: Irishhaf



Back ground checks, any place that sells a gun without doing a back ground check and then the gun gets used in a crime it will be traced back to them and the people that sold it and the business are toast at that point.

Whether a gun is sold person to person or through a shop etc it is on the seller to ensure the buyer is legally able to buy the gun or the seller can be held criminally liable, so to those who sell with no background checks, FFL etc, good luck on that.

BTW transfer from state to state must go through a FFL and that process requires that the buyer fills out the ATF Form 4473, The FFL then runs the NICS background check, and upon a “proceed” decision, can then give the firearm to the buyer.

How about illegally possessing a firearm or using one in a crime is an automatic death sentence. Will that be acceptable.

a reply to: odzeandennz

Rights are ours until we give reason to take them away. So we have plenty of people who may not own guns, criminals that have proven to be violent.

It should not be earned. What would the criteria be? Who decides who has earned it?

Trump or the congress? I am sure the founding fathers would have laughed at the thought. They were rightfully concerned about tyrannical governments, so accepting that those very governments had to control who earned the right to keep arms is absolutely anethema to them.


I am quite certian that you dont know about mass homicides from china involving vehicles. If you do, you are either a genius or a bigger nerd than me looking up vehicular homicides deaths in china.

You are right, china doesnt have a right to bear arms.

And under mao, up to 100 million chinese may have be murdered by the government.

originally posted by: theantediluvian

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: AScrubWhoDied



What pass? Needing a drivers license? Needed to be of age? Needed to pass a test to certify you know what the # you're doing while drive?

I don't need to do any of that to go acquire a tool designed to only kill.

Funny how that works huh?

Are you a liar or just ignorant?

So any age can by a firearm?

Cool I really wanted a new shotgun.

I will just send my 8 year old cousin in to buy it for me.

Actually, it depends on where you live. The federal minimum age for possession of a handgun is 18 but there's no minimum age for long guns. Skimming the table of state laws here, it looks like there are 7-8 states where there's no state law prohibiting purchase of a long gun by a person under the age of 18.

ETA:

I need to clarify something above. Federal law does prohibit sale of long guns to persons under the age of 18 by *licensed dealers*, it does not however prohibit the sale to minors by anyone else.

Yes but the law doesnt really prohibit the sale of almost anything privately.

I can sell a car to a twelve year old as well I believe.

And beyond sales, whats really to stop anyone from gifting a gun to anyone else.

The point is the idea that any kid can waltz into a pawn shop and stoe and buy a gin is ridiculous.

originally posted by: AScrubWhoDied

originally posted by: roadgravel
a reply to: AScrubWhoDied

Again, you gotta jump through more hoops to get certain certain cars here.

When a person is borrowing 10s of thousands of dollars from a bank it's going to be hoop filled.

Even when you're paying cash you gotta jump through hoops,and that's for domestically sold vehicles.

Now try to get an R34 or something, ha good luck - even if you are paying cash.

I can go to my junk yard and buy a car in like five minutes for a few hundred bucks.

The only thing checked is proof of insurance, and that is a state law.

a reply to: Wayfarer

Bull#!!

No, you can not.

I purchased a Ruger revolver this past summer at a gun show, and I had to jump through all the same hoops as I would at any store that sells firearms. Everyone of those people who sell firearms at those show have to be licensed to sell 'em.