Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

a reply to: eletheia

scotland Doesnt accept GMO , its a devolved issue to agriculture , so the UK making trade deals with the US
wont work completely as GMO is banned in Scotland

or did you forget Scotland had devolution?

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: ScepticScot
The US Secretary of state has confirmed that chlorinated chicken would be a part of any trade deal.

The UK accepting chlorinated chicken is a trade-deal issue. It's a agricultural standard - specifically welfare in poultry farming.

The EU has a habit of being selective with animal welfare issues which sadly demonstrated EU hypocrisy and protectionism. We (in the UK) have had to import foodstuffs from other parts of the EU which fall well below our standards, such as intensively farmed pork from Germany, Romania and Denmark, foie gras, cruel poultry farming, veal et al.

Here's Pompeo on the subject.

We need to make sure we don’t use food safety as a ruse to try and protect a particular industry. And then we need to have the hard conversations about the places we have opportunities to give and take, and then deliver on outcomes that benefit the agricultural sector, and most importantly, consumers who are going to be the net beneficiaries of these really good deals.

Source - one of several easily found, but where Pompeo also covers debunks the NHS talk

ETA _ the drug price increases is based on information from the US department of commerce.

? Unable to find anything except to say that Mike Pompeo (from the source above) said...

QUESTION: And the National Health Service, that was a big issue in our general election campaign where the opposition said, well, Donald Trump wants to buy the NHS.
SECRETARY POMPEO: (Laughter.) Just so you know, we found that odd in the United States, such a suggestion.
QUESTION: So you can categorically say that you’re not interested in the NHS?
SECRETARY POMPEO: I can categorically say we’re not interested in it.

So fake news and people being very disingenuous and selective.

Since Bastions claim wasn't that US wanted to buy the NHS that is hardly debunking it. You are also I assume accepting his point with regard chlorinated chicken as well now?

The fact that the US is going to want changes to how the NHS buys drugs, his actual claim, has been confirmed in numerous reports.

Now whether they get that or not is, as Freeborn points out, still open for negotiation, but claiming that the US wanting that , or chlorinated chicken, to be part of deal has been debunked is clearly false.

Any trade deal we get with the US is going to be much more on their terms than ours. We of course can refuse anything as part of negotiations, but let's not fool ourselves that we can get a good deal on the terms we want. This is certainly not a negotiation between equals.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: eletheia

scotland Doesnt accept GMO , its a devolved issue to agriculture , so the UK making trade deals with the US
wont work completely as GMO is banned in Scotland

or did you forget Scotland had devolution?

This only applies to food grown in Scotland. While scotland has its own foods standard agency, food standards rules will effectively be a reserved issue post brexit.

So UK government will be free to give up any food standards it wants across the whole of UK.

Unless there has been any changes that I haven't seen.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Compromising on food standards will be a hard sell anywhere in the UK not just Scotland.

Why do you think we would be any more amenable to it than Scotland?

a reply to: ScepticScot

Looking at this article it looks so complex , as far as I can see it would violate some sort of WTO agreement on the sale of GMO

and michael gove says its a green brexit and GMO is off the table in future UK /US or UK any other GMO nation trade deals.

Overall, Brexit exacerbates various tensions associated with GMO cultivation. First, the relationships between devolved competences and the future of the UK internal market remain undefined.
Second, it highlights the potential conflict between environmental calls for a ‘green Brexit’ and the economic push to agree trade deals with countries that uphold GMO cultivation.
Third, GMO restrictions based on grounds other than scientific justification are unlikely to be WTO compliant. Thus, GMOs highlight the forthcoming difficult political choices ahead in a legal context that is changing profoundly.

GMO cultivation in the UK

GMO crops will still banned post brexit ; Michael Gove

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

Compromising on food standards will be a hard sell anywhere in the UK not just Scotland.

Why do you think we would be any more amenable to it than Scotland?

For the same reason you keep voting for Tory governments?

Or slightly more seriously with clear majority, 5 years to go in government and a sympathetic press pushing a trade deal what makes you think they care what people think about food standards?

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: ScepticScot

Looking at this article it looks so complex , as far as I can see it would violate some sort of WTO agreement on the sale of GMO

and michael gove says its a green brexit and GMO is off the table in future UK /US or UK any other GMO nation trade deals.

Overall, Brexit exacerbates various tensions associated with GMO cultivation. First, the relationships between devolved competences and the future of the UK internal market remain undefined.
Second, it highlights the potential conflict between environmental calls for a ‘green Brexit’ and the economic push to agree trade deals with countries that uphold GMO cultivation.
Third, GMO restrictions based on grounds other than scientific justification are unlikely to be WTO compliant. Thus, GMOs highlight the forthcoming difficult political choices ahead in a legal context that is changing profoundly.

GMO cultivation in the UK

GMO crops will still banned post brexit ; Michael Gove

If Michael Gove says then I feel totally reassured...

a reply to: Freeborn

Well will it allow chlorinated chicken, chlorinated beef and all the heavily laced antibiotic milk
, which even Canada bans, from USA?

The major concern seems to be the conditions in the growing process not the after death process. Even EU says chlorinated chicken is safe to eat. Especially as the USA exported to EU 12,600,000 metric tons of Chicken meat apps.fas.usda.gov... just last month

But will a forced product of origin allow consumers to decide rather than allow secret deals to allow it in unmarked?

But will that allow false price increases to farmers touting unwarranted fear ?
Hard to decide but perhaps we should all start a veg garden and dig for victory.

a reply to: sapien82

Issues around GMOs are very complex, not least because there is a good change their use could reduce pesticide and herbicide use in agriculture, which is a massive benefit if we are going to resolve the decimation of our native flora and fauna.

Personally, I think blanket bans on GMOs is short-sighted if the scientific evidence (as opposed to emotional hand-wringing) can demonstrate safety and benefit. I think it's sensible to deal with GMOs on a case by case basis and the default position should be that they are dangerous either to the environment or the consumer.

Also worth noting that the EU has passed 50 or so GMOs as safe, so there you go. Plus, with the German owned Bayer now running Monsanto I would give it a decade of lobbying and corruption within the EU before policy changes and the EU embrace GMOs. Buy some Bayer shares guys before Ursula von der Leyen’s husband corners the market!

Regardless, at the end of the day GMOs and such like are part of future trade negotiations, probably under agriculture and food standards.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Personally I've never voted Tory, ever.

But I really fail to see how whatever party a person votes for determines their stance on hygiene and food standards?
That really is a MASSIVE leap.

Are you trying to say that ALL Tory voters don't care about the conditions these chickens are raised in?

And of course there is the knock on effect on the UK's chicken farmers; every single Tory voter couldn't give a toss about them and the only people who do are Scottish SNP voters.

What a load of absolute bollocks.

I really expect much, much better from you.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

Personally I've never voted Tory, ever.

But I really fail to see how whatever party a person votes for determines their stance on hygiene and food standards?
That really is a MASSIVE leap.

Are you trying to say that ALL Tory voters don't care about the conditions these chickens are raised in?

And of course there is the knock on effect on the UK's chicken farmers; every single Tory voter couldn't give a toss about them and the only people who do are Scottish SNP voters.

What a load of absolute bollocks.

I really expect much, much better from you.

You expect better of me based on an answer you constructed entirely in your head? I will try not to be disappointed or cry myself to sleep but it will be a long journey to recovery...

Or we could deal with what I actually did say?

The Tory party are the party of business, free market and less regulation. For all good and bad those things involve. That isn't really debated even by Tory voters.

It's also not really up for much debate that Johnson really wants a free trade deal with US. Both fir economic and political reasons. If he has to trade of some food regulation in the name of achieving that i don't think he would have a seconds doubt.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Of course Boris Johnson wants a trade deal with the US, who doesn't?

But we don't know what areas he may make concessions on or where his red lines are.
You seem to be pre-judging him on long held prejudices.
I don't have much faith in him and even less in his party but I recognise that I have no option but to wait and see what he does and judge him on his actual acts and deeds.

And I also know that party affiliation by no means determines one's concerns over things like the standards chickens are raised in and the knock on effect of the mass introduction of US chicken.

Finally there is also the knowledge that Boris wants to be in Downing Street for a long time - he is after all an extremely egotistical person.
For that to happen he has to convince all those people behind the red wall who voted Conservative for the first time and who feel dirty and unclean for doing so to continue supporting him and vote for him and his party again.

Sometimes you seem to delight in inferring much but when called out on it you quickly deny any such intent.
I'm no intellectual giant, not by any stretch, but I've been around the block more than a few times and I'm piss wise enough to recognise those traits when I see them.
Deny all you want but I don't think you'll be fooling many people.

Even if I don't agree with you I usually find your posts interesting and many a time make me question my viewpoint and perspective.

a reply to: puzzled2

To be honest I don't really know enough about all that to give any sort of qualified or reasoned answer.

Looks like something I need to read up on.

aye we can judge boris on what he has done , and look his party cut more benefits of the elderly

and he has also pledged to spend £5 million to convince scots about the union

what the actual # man

he can take that 5 million and give it straight back to the elderly

surely his manifesto is all the convincing anyone really needs? , or by convince he means to spend £5 million of tax payers money lying to the Scottish voters

we have a sleekit bastart in power judgement has already been passed on him
lets not feel guilty about calling him that because its true!

a reply to: puzzled2

The second link I posted shows an article that explains the EU's regulations
you can have GMO in your EU country if your government wishes

the UK didnt want it when it was in the EU

for many reasons as outlined in the article , but it was mostly to do with the impact on trade itself rather than moral or scientific concerns.

a reply to: paraphi

I think GMO's can be safe if done with care in mind, but remember we are talking about a society that believes in profit before planet and people . So who knows what corners get cut to make a few bucks on the side.

I am already against herbicides and pesticides for the damage they do to the environment all over the world and the toxins it introduces to our environment and our food , to feed millions for a profit.

Buy shares in Bayer you say , the company that merged from IG Farben , hmmmmm I think I'll pass

a reply to: sapien82

so it was more to protect the local profiteer that threw you a few quid than the welfare of citizens ( Scots and non-Scots )
What comes first the welfare of the chicken or the profit of the corporate agro-companies.
For example
if Scottish fish can be shipped to China turned into kippers and shipped back to make more profit than doing it in Scotland where do you see the problem?
Not Training and investing in Scottish workers?
Scottish workers wanting to much money?
Government bureaucracy and taxes?
or
There's not a problem all is well as some one somewhere is paid to perform a job and someone make a profit?

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

Of course Boris Johnson wants a trade deal with the US, who doesn't?

But we don't know what areas he may make concessions on or where his red lines are.
You seem to be pre-judging him on long held prejudices.
I don't have much faith in him and even less in his party but I recognise that I have no option but to wait and see what he does and judge him on his actual acts and deeds.

And I also know that party affiliation by no means determines one's concerns over things like the standards chickens are raised in and the knock on effect of the mass introduction of US chicken.

Finally there is also the knowledge that Boris wants to be in Downing Street for a long time - he is after all an extremely egotistical person.
For that to happen he has to convince all those people behind the red wall who voted Conservative for the first time and who feel dirty and unclean for doing so to continue supporting him and vote for him and his party again.

Sometimes you seem to delight in inferring much but when called out on it you quickly deny any such intent.
I'm no intellectual giant, not by any stretch, but I've been around the block more than a few times and I'm piss wise enough to recognise those traits when I see them.
Deny all you want but I don't think you'll be fooling many people.

Even if I don't agree with you I usually find your posts interesting and many a time make me question my viewpoint and perspective.

I think given his his track record giving Johnson the benefit of the doubt on anything is extremely wishful thinking.

We can want a trade deal with the US but we need to accept it's going to come with conditions we might not find palatable. My concern is that Johnson with his desire to prove his hard brexit credentials will rule out any reasonable deal with the EU but happily accept any deal with the US.

I have absolutely zero faith in him putting country before personal interest.

With the exception of what I would hope are fairly obvious sarcastic posts generally mean that I say. I say I think a Tory politicians is a lying self entered arseI mean he is one, not all Tory voters.

Some of my best friends are Tory voters.

Well obviously not best friends, but people I would nod to in passing if no one else was around. Got to have some standards.

a reply to: puzzled2

I think the whole GMO thing is all about trade and trade sanctions
because of the WTO and then all those extra EU rules

Aye its about making the most money I think

Aye they ship things half the way around the world for cheap labour , and no doubt the ships that take the resources are registered to a country with extremely lax labour laws

everything is so #in shady man

I dont think it had anything to do with public safety , science, or making money for local farmers , workers etc

its all just about profit , whilst checking boxes for the EU and WTO