Who deserves to get rescued?

originally posted by: Kryties
a reply to: MikeA

I'm not religious but the line "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" from somewhere in the bible is still a good moral code to live by - regardless of religious beliefs or not.

I served as a Coast Guard rescue swimmer and I can tell you from experience there's a big difference between jumping out of a helicopter to save someone who's boat sank threw no fault of their own, and doing it to save someone who's boat sank because they decided to go out and play in the waves of an on coming storm. I have done both. I have also jumped to save the lives of drug runners who scuttle their boat and jump overboard to get rid of evidence. I did know going in that I would be jumping in to save whoever it was in the water. That said, first responders likely do know that they will be going in to save the stupid people too.

However the question here is not what first responders sign up for. The question here is at what point is that fool who's to stupid to get out of the way responsible for their own actions? If I'm trapped in a building by an earthquake then yes that's what they expected to run into. If I'm trapped in a building by a storm I've known about for a week, that's on me. The difference is the action of choice. I'm not a religious person either, but if you want to say do unto others, I would ask why those who stayed are not taking the lives of first responders into account when they choose to stay? Do you think any of them stopped to think if I get in trouble for staying someone will have to risk their lives to save me? Do unto others also means don't do something that puts others lives at risk.

Lack of money and sense is a helluva drug.

Looks like most everyone that swarmed out did not need too afterall in the areas that were scheduled for evac..

When the storm veers off track is when people get stranded sometimes.

originally posted by: angeldoll
Or.............. just let them die.

Thank god all you people are powerless.

Or recognize that sometimes, you have to take an active role in your life and well-being. You can't always rely on everyone else to come do for you. In a disaster, we all have to pull together and I include the people who decide to be stubborn as much as the ones having to try to save them.

If you can make it easy on everyone and get out like you're advised to do, maybe you should?

a reply to: JAGStorm

I was at the doctor's for a blood pull, and I heard this:
"(so and so) is staying- they got their guns"

So... what in the HELL is a gun going to do when you are treading water, face pressed against the ceiling, with seconds to live, or you are out of food, water, or the place collapses in on you? Honestly and seriously- how can someone lack so much damn common sense?!

Second- if you're that much of a stubborn (rhymes with truck), and you think you're all that and a bag of chips, and have the resources to not be stranded in the middle of a severe storm- 'and the horse you rode in on'. I have a plan in place to secure or move what I like to keep or need. Everything else is covered by insurance. I'd like to see this idiot, soggy and plastered against his 77" tv, trying to keep an equally soggy possum away from it.

Please do not say that people can't leave because they don't have money, there are shelters and transportation that was offered for free.

People who are UNABLE (but willing) to leave should be accommodated. Stop wasting resources on richer SOBs who can leave on their own.

a reply to: MikeA

not much water in az.

you must be experiencing withdrawal symptoms.

Many people have various reasons to stay behind in certain situations like this. It is often a risk assessment they have to do with cash being a factor.

a reply to: angeldoll

The arrangement isn't cold and heartless, people are being warned, efforts to help them reach safety are being conducted...this is reasonable. It's not evil to put boundaries and conditions around help/assistance, its actually a healthy behavior to do so.

Now, if these people were left clueless, ignored and abandoned...that is a completely different story. But not this story. Not risking your life for someone who cares none about their own isn't cold...its rational.

Its not about "obedience" either...they aren't subjected to death as a punitive action....but due to their own inaction...

Why not put the responsibility where it belongs?

Even without the internet AND a mobile network, people must realize that living literally on the east coast, is not such a great idea.

That area gets blasted by hurricanes often. If you're planning on living on the coastline, you should at least have some knowledge that it's going to fall down either due to erosion or a natural weather disaster like the hurricane right now.
While I was still a baby my parents were living by a beach and it may seem like a great place to be but in reality it really is not. (high winds, rising tides etc.)

originally posted by: wylekat
a reply to: JAGStorm

So... what in the HELL is a gun going to do when you are treading water, face pressed against the ceiling, with seconds to live, or you are out of food, water, or the place collapses in on you? Honestly and seriously- how can someone lack so much damn common sense?!

You shoot the water so that it runs away!

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: angeldoll
Or.............. just let them die.

Thank god all you people are powerless.

Or recognize that sometimes, you have to take an active role in your life and well-being. You can't always rely on everyone else to come do for you. In a disaster, we all have to pull together and I include the people who decide to be stubborn as much as the ones having to try to save them.

If you can make it easy on everyone and get out like you're advised to do, maybe you should?

Punitive.

Had I been there, I would have evacuated. But everyone is not like me, and I am adult enough to realize that.
That doesn't mean I'm willing to leave elderly, poor, sick, or just plain stubborn to die.

a reply to: angeldoll

Have you even ventured into deep flood water to rescue people?

Worst job ever!

Rescuing cats in a hurricane bare handed.

Funny joke...

So a deeply religious man is stranded on his roof after a massive flood from a hurricane.

After being on the roof, a guy in the canoe floats by in his bass boat and offers to rescue him. The religous man says, Thanks, but go rescue someone in more need. God will take care of me.

Another few hours pass and the water keeps rising. A guy in the Cajun Navy comes by and offers to rescue him. The religous man says, Thanks, but go rescue someone in more need. God will take care of me.

More time passed, and now the water is up to the religious guy's neck. This time a helicopter comes by and offers to rescue him. The religious man, say Thanks, but go rescue someone in more need. God will take care of me.

The water continues to rise and the religious man drowns. He goes to Heaven and he meets God. He ask God, "Why didn't you take care of me?"

God replies, "I tried to but you kept turning me down. Damn, I sent a canoe, the Cajun Navy, and a helicopter! WTF else did you expect?

originally posted by: roadgravel
a reply to: angeldoll

Have you even ventured into deep flood water to rescue people?

No, I haven't, but I do see where you're coming from. I was almost irate once when I saw rescuers trying to save climbers on Mt. Everest when they had been advised about possible storms. It was so dangerous for those helicopters up there in all that ice and snow trying to save people hanging from ropes and pickaxes from a mountainside. (I think after that it was determined they would in fact have to pay for the rescue, which I thought was fair.) In that scenario, I wouldn't advise attempted rescue due to imminent danger to themselves.

Of course the difference here is, reportedly the rescuers have waited for periods when it is safer. I would not think they should have to go out in the middle of a hurricane to rescue someone. Or in raging water that could sweep them away.
But as long as it's safe, I think they should do it.

All in all, I think this decision should be left to the rescuers themselves, and whether their training tells them they can effect a safe rescue.

originally posted by: howtonhawky
a reply to: MikeA

not much water in az.

you must be experiencing withdrawal symptoms.

Many people have various reasons to stay behind in certain situations like this. It is often a risk assessment they have to do with cash being a factor.

Lol withdrawal not really I was born and raised here. Not much water here is true to some extent, but the entire state isn't that way. I was a swimmer because I'm a really strong swimmer. I served with people who lived near the ocean who could barely keep their heads above water. For me it would be easy. I would ride out the storm and then swim to safety. These folks clearly are not strong swimmer or they would too. So if I'm not a strong swimmer and I'm told the flood is coming, my butt is heading for higher ground. Like the joke goes.
There's a storm coming so the man says God save me!! The water starts to come in and truck stops in front of his house and he says no thank you, God will save me. The water keeps rising and climbs on his roof. A boat comes by and he says no thank you, God will save me. The water is around his feet and another boat stops and he says no thank you God will save me. The guy drowns and goes to heaven. He goes to God to ask why didn't you save me. God says I warned you it was coming, then sent a truck and 2 boats to pull you out, what more did you want??

I will respond with this question: where does it stop?

Some idiot decides to throw a hurricane party and winds up trapped amid high winds and rising water, despite being warned to evacuate?

A fool decides to stand his ground against a wildfire with a garden hose?

Someone tries to start a fire with gasoline and loses some skin in a sudden backdraft?

Someone ignores warnings of firecrackers and blows three fingers off?

A smoker needs a medical procedure?

Someone in a car crash wasn't wearing a seatbelt?

Someone overweight needs medical care?

Someone who eats red meat needs heart surgery due to high cholesterol?

A jaywalker gets hit by a car?

I repeat, where does it end?

I say it doesn't need to end because it doesn't need to start. A person in trouble deserves the same attempts to help them as any other person in trouble. Period. That is not where we should be making life-and-death moral decisions. We can make those later, but not when the result of those moral decisions are an assured death for stoopidity.

I keep seeing personal responsibility thrown up... there is personal responsibility. Once someone is in a life-or-death situation, their responsibility was to not get into those situations... they have no guarantee they will survive, despite the best efforts of the rescuers, and that is the consequence of their actions. During the worst fury of the hurricane, they will not be rescued because they cannot be... the risks are at the level of suicide to the rescuers. However, if those risks become acceptable, then yes, make every reasonable attempt to rescue those in need. One can be in favor of personal responsibility without being in favor of allowing the stoopid to die without even an attempt to rescue them.

I also have to say this: as I read through this thread, I saw many familiar names. Some are well-known conservatives, while others are well-known progressives. I saw no staunch conservatives agreeing with the OP to let people die, but I did see several progressives who did agree. I'm proud that at least those who tend to side with me on most issues also show much more compassion for their fellow man than the majority of those who typically disagree with me.

Angeldoll is a pleasurable exception to that observation. Good show, girl!

TheRedneck

originally posted by: JAGStorm
This is becoming a broken record, officials plead, beg, insist that people evacuate before storms.

Without fail, people are stubborn and say oh' i've been through this before so i'll be ok.
There was someone on FB asking for rescue as water was in their house, they were right by the coast.
It is one thing if something totally unexpected hits like a tornado, or even to some degree wildfires.
Hurricanes not so much. We've had a week of warnings. Everyone on the east coast knows they were at risk.


At what point do we say, NO?
Do we start charging for people that fail to heed the warnings?
Do we let people just sit there and die instead of risking the lives of responders?


Please do not say that people can't leave because they don't have money, there are shelters and transportation that was offered for free.
There were facilities for pets too. That is a sad excuse anyways, how do you think your pets will fare when water is up to your neck?

People have seemed to have lost their sense of responsibility and common sense these days.

Just a story for example:
I'm not even kidding when I say I read about a lady that wanted to get on her roof and cut some tree limbs that she had put off but now thinks the storm will push them to hit her house (the eye was just outside of her area). She was going to have her 10yr old and 14yr old help with ropes and she was going to climb on her roof, with hurricane force winds and try to use a chainsaw. The tree was gigantic too! Part of me feels really sorry for those kids but part of me think that's a good way to clear out the dumb gene pool.

Fortunately, everyone. But if you did not heed mandated evacuation....it's on you and your place in line of others.

Elderly, sick, children, disabled...we will try....but no guarantees. We do what we can either in order...triaged(my thing)...or search and rescue....worst? Recovery of your remains.

Please folks...when told to get out...go. If you can't? ASAP...call us and we'll get you.

Once disaster strikes and we or the National Guard, Military and others can't get to you...sadly, you are on your own. Yes...and may die.

FEMA/Homeland Security
1st Responder
Advanced Disaster Life Support

a reply to: mysterioustranger



"Please folks...when told to get out...go. If you can't? ASAP...call us and we'll get you. "


This is what I am talking about!!!!! I've even seen strangers offer their homes for people and their pets in addition to shelter being offered. There is zero excuse, zero!

a reply to: TheRedneck

So as discussions go, people who agree with you are correct and other not.

Also never underestimate the thrill of the rescue.

a reply to: angeldoll

Yeah, and?

If you cannot evacuate yourself, we have these things called telephones. I also hear tell of this newfangled thing called the internet ... These things allow us to communicate our situations to the wider world around us.

If these people can call for the first responders to come and rescue them now, what on earth prevented them from calling and communicating that they were unable to evacuate themselves before they were trapped in the flood?

I don't want anyone to die, not the people in trouble but not the first responders either, and if you had the means to go, then at what point should we put some responsibility on your shoulders to do it before you're drowning?