Oliver the Human-Chimp Hybrid / Humanzee

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: peacefulpete

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: peacefulpete
a reply to: LABTECH767

I don't believe there's any reason to think that humans and chimps would be physically incompatible, at least, for our "private parts."

I'd expect those "parts" to be very similar.

(I've often heard that, contrary to our expectations, human males have the biggest ****, out of all the primates lol.)

There’s a huge difference in being physically able to engage in the act and genetically being able to produce viable embryos. This hasn’t actually been tested and human sperm can not penetrate the eggs of any of the other Apes with the exception of the Gibbon and those tests only showed that human sperm could penetrate the egg, not that there was an ability to reproduce with them. Our sperm can’t even penetrate the egg of a chimpanzee so no, there is no possibility of succesfulmadmixture between humans and chimpanzees.

So going on that premise, I don't find it hard to believe at all, that some guy in central Africa could have had a small chimp pet, and maybe he got drunk, and no one was around, and maybe he restrained the small chimp in a certain way, and...

Oliver was born lol.

You have a very vivid imagination but not much understanding of biology and genetics.

Humans and chimps are actually closer genetically than the known examples of interspecies mating: Horses and donkeys produce a mule. Lions and tigers produce a liger.

It's much LESS of a leap for a human and chimp to produce a hybrid. Right?

As Inexplained in my previous reply, it has been tested. Human sperm can not penetrate the egg if a chimpanzee. This means no possibility of an embryo and without an embryo you don’t have offspring. Admixture betweeen humans and chimps is not possible. If it were the Russians would have been successful in their experiments 60 odd years ago in the late 1950’s.

I really don't think that has been tested, the way you think it has.

Of the few vague stories about such experiments, there is supposedly a case of the Chinese successfully impregnating a chimp with human sperm IIRC. Then the Cultural Revolution happened and the lab got destroyed, or something like that.

I don't think there have been any known experiments that indicate that human sperm CAN'T combine with a chimp's egg...

Have you actually heard about experiments that came to that conclusion?!

Is this a racist joke about certain athletes?

yes, it is.

well spotted

originally posted by: fiverx313

Is this a racist joke about certain athletes?

yes, it is.

well spotted

Well damn, I just wasn't expecting racist jokes lol. I first thought he was actually talking about a monkey, which would have been pertinent to the topic of the thread.

Jokes about racism are just stupid and hateful... and probably shows that toms54 is suffering the lust and jealousy of never getting laid with a black woman lol.

a reply to: peacefulpete

They seem to be think they were conclusive.

I don't know what to tell you. Without a third test to disprove the first two. We just have to go with the results of the prior two tests. Plus the cranial morphology.

This is the only evidence we have so far.

a reply to: peacefulpete

Judging from your record in past threads, and judging from your post in this thread, including using the wrong word in your very first sentence ("incompatible" that you somehow morphed into "incomparable"),

I pointed out that what you think the other said wasn't said.

Judging from your past posts its no surprise.

You seem to have understood exactly what I was posting ( the T and R buttons on the keyboard are right next to each other, an honest mistake not like purposely obfuscating what a majority of things said) yet felt to post this reply to say you wont reply.

and linking to a speculative post in a speculative website (quora.com) as if it was more than what it is,

you have now had 2 opportunities to check to see if what comes out your mouth actually fits reality.

There is a word actually a few words for such idiocy.

and starting a tangent about the word "normal" after I was obviously responding to someone saying that Oliver's traits were in the normal range (which they're obviously not):

again with the obfuscation.


You said it wasn't normal because its never been seen in any other monkey in history.

Humans have just educated themselves about Chimpanzees in the last 50 years but you can say that there was only chimp like that in history?







You are a legend.

a reply to: peacefulpete

Yes, I’m aware of the experiments to see if human sperm can penetrate the eggs of other apes. It’s why I was able to say “with the exception of the Gibbon”. I’m an anthropologist and follow a lot of work outside my own area. This was one of the experiments I’ve read about. I’ll try to find the journal article.

originally posted by: peacefulpete

originally posted by: fiverx313

Is this a racist joke about certain athletes?

yes, it is.

well spotted

Jokes about racism are just stupid and hateful... and probably shows that toms54 is suffering the lust and jealousy of never getting laid with a black woman lol.

Now who is being crude?

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: peacefulpete

originally posted by: fiverx313

Is this a racist joke about certain athletes?

yes, it is.

well spotted

Jokes about racism are just stupid and hateful... and probably shows that toms54 is suffering the lust and jealousy of never getting laid with a black woman lol.

Now who is being crude?

That was my response to your racist joke against black women. You are obviously harboring feelings toward black women lol. And that was my guess as to why you're obsessed with black women lol.

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: peacefulpete

They seem to be think they were conclusive.

I don't know what to tell you. Without a third test to disprove the first two. We just have to go with the results of the prior two tests. Plus the cranial morphology.

This is the only evidence we have so far.

Well, the DNA testing was factually not conclusive / comprehensive.

Testing mitochondrial DNA does not include testing for Y-DNA, which could have been anomalous, but which was never tested AFAIK.

The physical morphology is still obvious that Oliver had physical traits that were, at the very least, RARE enough that he was the only known example of such traits. It's just patently false that his traits fall into the normal range of variation, or else we would see MORE chimps that walk upright, etc.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: peacefulpete

Yes, I’m aware of the experiments to see if human sperm can penetrate the eggs of other apes. It’s why I was able to say “with the exception of the Gibbon”. I’m an anthropologist and follow a lot of work outside my own area. This was one of the experiments I’ve read about. I’ll try to find the journal article.

OK, cool, I'd like to see such an article. I was under the impression that the gibbon egg was the only type of egg that has been tested.

Plus, gibbons are less similar to us, than chimps are -- so the results would suggest that the same could obviously be done with chimps.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

I pointed out that what you think the other said wasn't said.

And then I pointed out that... it actually WAS said.

See you're going in circles from your very first and second post in this thread lol.

You seem to have understood exactly what I was posting ( the T and R buttons on the keyboard are right next to each other, an honest mistake not like purposely obfuscating what a majority of things said) yet felt to post this reply to say you wont reply.

Um, "incompatible" is a completely different word, with a completely different meaning, from the word "incomparable." They are 2 letters' difference, plus they are dramatically different words with dramatically different meanings. This is like saying that "computer" and "commuted" are the same word, there's the difference that 2 letters can make. (As in, the bus "computer" to my job. Or, I am sitting at my "commuted" right now lol.)

you have now had 2 opportunities to check to see if what comes out your mouth actually fits reality.

I've read each link, and I researched the topic before I made the thread and video. Yes, the vid and thread fit reality.

There is a word actually a few words for such idiocy.

Christ, that's not even a sentence. Let me guess, you're going to argue that it WOULD be a sentence if you had used a couple of commas, so I shouldn't mind that what you wrote is not actually a sentence lol.

again with the obfuscation. You said it wasn't normal because its never been seen in any other monkey in history. Humans have just educated themselves about Chimpanzees in the last 50 years but you can say that there was only chimp like that in history?

Lol. Now referring to scientific knowledge is not good enough? The alternative is... what? Blabbing that science is limited in its scope, so we should disregard science? LOL!!

You are a legend.

^ Sounds creepy and obsessive. I'm not interested in you. lol.

It would seem that the Japanese testing wasn't as cut and dry as you would lead people to believe.

It would also seem there were two seperate test regimes conducted in the 1990's, both of which said Oliver had 48 chromosomes and was 100% Chimp.

Preliminary genetic tests were said to indicate that he had forty-seven chromosomes, whereas human beings have forty-six, and common chimpanzees forty-eight. The tests were un-confirmed, however, and the media soon lost interest

The Japanese made good on their promise to conduct an elaborate scientific examination, Nippon's ubiquitous camera crews recording every step. At one point scientists placed Oliver on a device called a "gravicoder," which indicated that his center of gravity resembled a human being's more than a chimpanzee's.

In most other respects, however, Oliver fell toward the chimp side of the spectrum.Karyotypes were worked up on forty of his cells; most seemed to indicate the presence of forty-eight chromosomes, but the results were ambiguous enough to keep the possibility of forty-seven alive for anyone who wanted to believe that. Reportedly, some 26 million people watched the Japanese television broadcast.

Swett developed his grudge against geneticists in the course of new genetic investigations of Oliver. David Ledbetter, of the University of Chicago, did blood tests in 1996. They showed conclusively that Oliver has forty-eight chromosomes, just like any other chimpanzee.

Swett did not take issue with the results; he had never bought into the half human, half chimp notion anyway. But he did believe that Oliver was something more wonderful and strange than just an ordinary chimpanzee.

Swett thought that perhaps Oliver was a cross between a common chimp (Pan troglodytes) and a pygmy chimp (Pan paniscus), or possibly an unknown subspecies of one or the other. A more refined genetic analysis might answer the question; but much to Swett's disgust, Ledbetter wasn't interested in pursuing the matter.

Swett subsequently enlisted the help of two other geneticists: John Ely, of Trinity University, in San Antonio, and Charleen Moore, of the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio.

Moore's work confirmed the chromosome count of forty-eight, and showed that when treated with a stain, Oliver's chromosomes had the pattern of light and dark bands characteristic of common chimps. This ruled out the theory that Oliver was a hybrid.

Meanwhile, Ely's study of Oliver's mitochondrial DNA suggested that he was a member of the subspecies Pan troglodytes troglodytes—not just a common chimp but a very common common chimp. He resembled most of all chimps from Gabon, which might make that central African country his most likely birthplace.

More On Oliver
By Dr. John J. Ely

Unsubstantiated rumors that cytogeneticists determined Oliver's karyotype to be 2N=47, midway between a human and a chimpanzee, led to further popular suggestions that he was a "sport" or a human-chimp hybrid. Two years ago, Science published a news report that Oliver the "'mutant' chimp" was getting a "gene check"

(1). Since then, the cytogenetic analysis alluded to in that report has been completed, along with mtDNA sequencing and homology comparisons to African chimpanzees of known geographical origins, and just published in the AJPA

(2). Our results indicate that Oliver is a member of the Pan troglodytes troglodytes subspecies from Central Africa, has 48 normal chimpanzee chromosomes, and was likely trapped in Gabon. Full details behind our conclusions can be found in our report

(3). I might add that, from what I have seen so far, those who really want to believe in highly intelligent, bipedal African man-apes ("Apamandi" and whatnot) who continue to elude field primatologists, the bushmeat market etc, will not be dissuaded by any amount of evidence. The persistence of these deeply-rooted beliefs, as psychological facts, are an interesting phenomenon in their own right.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

1. Science, 1996. "Mutant" Chimp Gets Gene Check. Science 274: 727.
2. Ely, J.J., Leland, M., Martino, M., Swett, W., and Moore, C.M., 1998.
Technical report: chromosomal and mtDNA analysis of Oliver.
American Journal of Physical Anthropology 105(3): 395-403.

Dr. John J. Ely, Ph.D.
Department of Biology
Trinity University
E-mail: [email protected]
Source: www.primate.wisc.edu...

Oliver's Travels



Here is a link to the published results...

Abstract

Oliver is an African ape whose species identity has been debated in the popular media and by various scientists since the early 1970s. Although decisive morphological data has never been adduced on Oliver, many reports indicated that Oliver was morphologically unusual for a chimpanzee, particularly in his habitual bipedal posture.

In addition, his diploid chromosome number was reported to be inconsistent with either human or chimpanzee, but instead intermediate between those species.

We performed standard chromosomal studies which demonstrated that Oliver had the diploid number expected for a chimpanzee (2N = 48) and that the banding patterns of his chromosomes were typical for a chimpanzee and different from both humans and bonobos.

We also sequenced a 312 bp region of his mitochondrial DNA D‐loop region. Results indicated a high sequence homology to the Central African variety of chimpanzee, Pan troglodytes troglodytes. The highest percent homology was observed with a previously characterized specimen from Gabon, strongly suggesting that Oliver originated from this region. Am J Phys Anthropol 105:395–403, 1998. © 1998 Wiley‐Liss, Inc.

Technical note: Chromosomal and mtDNA analysis of Oliver

That looks conclusive to me?

originally posted by: peacefulpete

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: peacefulpete

originally posted by: fiverx313

Is this a racist joke about certain athletes?

yes, it is.

well spotted

Jokes about racism are just stupid and hateful... and probably shows that toms54 is suffering the lust and jealousy of never getting laid with a black woman lol.

Now who is being crude?

That was my response to your racist joke against black women. You are obviously harboring feelings toward black women lol. And that was my guess as to why you're obsessed with black women lol.

I did not create that page but I did point it out. How do you draw anything sexual from this? Nothing in my post was sexual in any way so I'm left to conclude this is your problem. I stand by my remark. Your post was crude.

a reply to: peacefulpete

Yes it is fact that without teeth the mandible will atrophy.
You can quickly learn to spot people with no bottom teeth just by looking at their jaw.
I am a registered nurse that learned this from my orthodontist. I didn’t quite believe him at first but started noticing the jawline of my edentulous patients. They all had the same thin, flat jawline

a reply to: peacefulpete

No, it’s not an obvious result that we can impregnate a chimpanzee. You simply decided t must be so and won’t be persuaded otherwise.

originally posted by: Guiltyguitarist
a reply to: peacefulpete

Yes it is fact that without teeth the mandible will atrophy.
You can quickly learn to spot people with no bottom teeth just by looking at their jaw.
I am a registered nurse that learned this from my orthodontist. I didn’t quite believe him at first but started noticing the jawline of my edentulous patients. They all had the same thin, flat jawline

Yep, you seem to be spot on.

A quick google query shows that Oliver was toothless for most of his life and that his odd facial features were a direct result.

After decades of mystery, Oliver's identity had finally been uncovered, exposed by his genes. But what of his external idiosyncrasies? Fly and Moore's paper contained some eye-opening information dating back to the 1970s, but which was presumably not sensational enough to attract the interest of the media and thus had not previously received publicity.

For instance, although media accounts had noted that Oliver was toothless (his teeth had been pulled), they had not revealed that primatologist Dr Clifford Jolly had examined Oliver as long ago as 1976. Jolly found that the reason why Oliver did not share the strikingly prognathous (projecting) jaw line of other chimps was due to resorption of the alveolar bone, plus a shortened maxilla and premaxilla (upper jaw bones), and underdeveloped temporal musculature. Jolly had concluded that these features were in turn caused by Oliver's toothless condition. He also concluded that Oliver's habitual bipedal gait was due to conditioning.

As for Oliver's cranial morphology, ear shape, freckles and baldness, these were nothing more than individual variations, well within the range of variability exhibited by the common chimpanzee - a species that presents, in the words of primatologist Prof. W.C. Osman Hill: "a bewildering variety of individual variations".

'APE-MAN' OLIVER - THE CHIMP THAT MADE A CHUMP OUT OF SCIENCE

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: peacefulpete

Yes, I’m aware of the experiments to see if human sperm can penetrate the eggs of other apes. It’s why I was able to say “with the exception of the Gibbon”. I’m an anthropologist and follow a lot of work outside my own area. This was one of the experiments I’ve read about. I’ll try to find the journal article.

Is this the paper ?

Abstract

Human spermatozoa display unusually limited affinities in their interaction with oocytes of other species. They adhered to and, when capacitated, penetrated the vestments of the oocyte of an ape‐the gibbon, Hylobates lar‐ both in vivo and in vitro.

On the other hand, human spermatozoa would not even attach to the zona surface of sub‐hominoid primate (baboon, rhesus monkey, squirrel monkey), nor to the non‐primate eutherian oocytes tested. Among the apes the gibbon stands furthest from man. Thus, although the specificity of human spermatozoa is not confined to man alone, it probably is restricted to the Hominoidea.

This study also suggests that the evolution of man and perhaps the other hominids has been accompanied by a restrictive change in the nature of the sperm surface which has limited and made more specific the complementary surface to which their spermatozoa may adhere.

For the failure of human spermatozoa to attach to the zona surface of all non‐hominoid oocytes stands in contrast to the behaviour of spermatozoa of the several other mammals studied which, in most combinations, adhered readily to foreign oocytes, including those of man.

Taxonomically, the demonstration of a compatibility between the gametes of man and gibbon, not shared with cercopithecids, constitutes further evidence for inclusion of the Hylobatidae within the Hominoidea.

Sperm/egg interaction: The specificity of human spermatozoa

a reply to: Guiltyguitarist

I can’t take credit, they didn’t teach me that in nursing school or if they did I was too busy checking out the ladies. Lol. Like I said, my orthodontist told me

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: peacefulpete

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: peacefulpete

originally posted by: fiverx313

Is this a racist joke about certain athletes?

yes, it is.

well spotted

Jokes about racism are just stupid and hateful... and probably shows that toms54 is suffering the lust and jealousy of never getting laid with a black woman lol.

Now who is being crude?

That was my response to your racist joke against black women. You are obviously harboring feelings toward black women lol. And that was my guess as to why you're obsessed with black women lol.

I did not create that page but I did point it out. How do you draw anything sexual from this? Nothing in my post was sexual in any way so I'm left to conclude this is your problem. I stand by my remark. Your post was crude.

Well I stand by my remark too. You injected racist insults against black women into a conversation that has nothing to do with black women, or even women in general. Yes that sounds like you're harboring resentments against black women, and that stands as my guess why you're resentful of them.

Are you going to argue that you have a valid reason to resent black women, and insult them in unrelated conversations?

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: peacefulpete

No, it’s not an obvious result that we can impregnate a chimpanzee. You simply decided t must be so and won’t be persuaded otherwise.

If we accept it as factual that gibbon eggs are compatible with human sperm, then it's completely logical to expect that chimp eggs would also be compatible, especially that chimps are much more similar to us, than gibbons.