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The scar of abortion on the American perspective.
page: 3share:
a reply to: eletheia
I see what you are trying to say. That child still may survive outside of the womb. There are many premature births that turn out a contributing member of society.
I have a cousin that was born 4 months premature and she is a healthy contributing member of society now. Mind you this was 50 years ago and she was brought home in a shoe box.
while not pointing to you directly I was thinking of the arguments back during Hitlers Germany about the handicap and ill children and it almost parallels the arguments for abortion that were made in euthanizing children.
will add a reference as soon as I figure out which book I read that out of.
I see what you are trying to say. That child still may survive outside of the womb. There are many premature births that turn out a contributing member of society.
I have a cousin that was born 4 months premature and she is a healthy contributing member of society now. Mind you this was 50 years ago and she was brought home in a shoe box.
while not pointing to you directly I was thinking of the arguments back during Hitlers Germany about the handicap and ill children and it almost parallels the arguments for abortion that were made in euthanizing children.
will add a reference as soon as I figure out which book I read that out of.
a reply to: Saiker
Since ancient times women have ended unwanted pregnancy. Just because it has only been in relatively recent history that surgical abortion was introduced and legalized abortion isn't anything special to our current era- so why would it affect anyone's perception of the value of life any more now than it did thousands of years ago?
If you want an explanation for why it seems that murder is more common nowadays maybe look to the last few generations that have been raised glued to technology (television, internet, video games, etc.) without limits instead of actually being raised by their parents. Maybe the problem is that people who don't intend to raise their own kids properly but have them anyway should have considered their options first.
Since ancient times women have ended unwanted pregnancy. Just because it has only been in relatively recent history that surgical abortion was introduced and legalized abortion isn't anything special to our current era- so why would it affect anyone's perception of the value of life any more now than it did thousands of years ago?
If you want an explanation for why it seems that murder is more common nowadays maybe look to the last few generations that have been raised glued to technology (television, internet, video games, etc.) without limits instead of actually being raised by their parents. Maybe the problem is that people who don't intend to raise their own kids properly but have them anyway should have considered their options first.
a reply to: Saiker
the fetus doesn't feel pain till around the third trimester... now we are talking about around half a million of that 40 million you mentioned before, spme of which are done due to health reasons..
when does it have consciousness? who knows, but I rather doubt if it does as it's traveling down the fullopian tube or before it implants itself in the uterus. of course, sometimes it kinds of messes up and implants itself in the fullopian tube. you really should be happy, the rate of abortion has been steadily decreasing since the 90's, unlike the rate of maternal deaths which has been increasing since about the same time as those lovely catholic hospitals have been popping up all over the place... probably because they don't really value the life of the mother as much as they do the life of the fetus!! they will allow that little guy to grow within the fullopian tube to the point where they can honestly say that it has compromised the integrity of the tube so they can justify the removal of the whole mess by slicing and dicing the women's body up!! the same philosophy goes when a women arrives miscarrying her baby. they won't do much of anything till the women's health is compromised to the point where they can honestly say it's to preserve her life.
that's the other half of the picture.
to me, when an abortion would be justified would depend on just how much do you expect a women to sacrifice to give life to another. how much is too much? if a doctor claims that a pregnancy is compromising the integrity of an organ in a women's body, it seems that if you would not tolerate a gov't forcing you to donate one of your organs to save someone's elses life, then well you shouldn't expect a women to give up one of hers to bring a life into the world.
and if you find it perfectly acceptable for your country to go around bombing third world countries to oblivion, along with a bunch of men, women, and children... to protect your freedom, your way of life...
then you have no right to complain about a women refusing to bring a child into the world.
the fetus doesn't feel pain till around the third trimester... now we are talking about around half a million of that 40 million you mentioned before, spme of which are done due to health reasons..
when does it have consciousness? who knows, but I rather doubt if it does as it's traveling down the fullopian tube or before it implants itself in the uterus. of course, sometimes it kinds of messes up and implants itself in the fullopian tube. you really should be happy, the rate of abortion has been steadily decreasing since the 90's, unlike the rate of maternal deaths which has been increasing since about the same time as those lovely catholic hospitals have been popping up all over the place... probably because they don't really value the life of the mother as much as they do the life of the fetus!! they will allow that little guy to grow within the fullopian tube to the point where they can honestly say that it has compromised the integrity of the tube so they can justify the removal of the whole mess by slicing and dicing the women's body up!! the same philosophy goes when a women arrives miscarrying her baby. they won't do much of anything till the women's health is compromised to the point where they can honestly say it's to preserve her life.
that's the other half of the picture.
to me, when an abortion would be justified would depend on just how much do you expect a women to sacrifice to give life to another. how much is too much? if a doctor claims that a pregnancy is compromising the integrity of an organ in a women's body, it seems that if you would not tolerate a gov't forcing you to donate one of your organs to save someone's elses life, then well you shouldn't expect a women to give up one of hers to bring a life into the world.
and if you find it perfectly acceptable for your country to go around bombing third world countries to oblivion, along with a bunch of men, women, and children... to protect your freedom, your way of life...
then you have no right to complain about a women refusing to bring a child into the world.
originally posted by: Saiker
I have a cousin that was born 4 months premature and she is a healthy contributing member of society now. Mind you this was 50 years ago and she was brought home in a shoe box.
I think thats probably a bit of a stretch maybe a tiny bit exagerated?
Doctors now consider 22 weeks the earliest gestational age when a baby is "viable," or able to survive outside the womb. But this is still extremely premature, and a baby born at this age will need a great deal of medical attention. Even if he survives, the risk of permanent disability is very high.
And that ^^^^ is fairly recently not 50 years ago.
while not pointing to you directly I was thinking of the arguments back during Hitlers Germany about the handicap and ill children and it almost parallels the arguments for abortion that were made in euthanizing children.
During the war Hitler euthanised liberally men women and children.
However I havent gone into it but he was very interested in experimenting
on pregnant women and the babies. I stopped reading it wasn't pleasant.
I may look into it again......
originally posted by: eletheia
originally posted by: Saiker
I have a cousin that was born 4 months premature and she is a healthy contributing member of society now. Mind you this was 50 years ago and she was brought home in a shoe box.
I think thats probably a bit of a stretch maybe a tiny bit exaggerated
Ya think? Who needs an incubator when you’ve got a shoe box!
a reply to: kaylaluv
what gets me is that they act like the number of women who get abortions because of health complications is so small it's insignificant and therefore don't need to be considered in these types of discussions, but the number of abortions where the fetus is near the point of being viable is an even smaller number, and yet, they seem to want to pretend that it fits the norm when it comes to abortions.
what gets me is that they act like the number of women who get abortions because of health complications is so small it's insignificant and therefore don't need to be considered in these types of discussions, but the number of abortions where the fetus is near the point of being viable is an even smaller number, and yet, they seem to want to pretend that it fits the norm when it comes to abortions.
a reply to: dawnstar
I insinuated no such thing...
I didn't even insinuate abortion was wrong. The thread is on how it impacts society and whether it diminishes the perceived value of life. And also whether its ist institutionalised racism and an attempt to purge minorities by the left.
Socialist are always all or nothing. The only way you can win a debate is to attack the op or make it about something totally different.
I insinuated no such thing...
I didn't even insinuate abortion was wrong. The thread is on how it impacts society and whether it diminishes the perceived value of life. And also whether its ist institutionalised racism and an attempt to purge minorities by the left.
Socialist are always all or nothing. The only way you can win a debate is to attack the op or make it about something totally different.
edit
on 22-8-2018 by Saiker because: (no reason given)
a reply to: kaylaluv
www.babycenter.com...
Have a read the survival rate is actually quite high for premature babies .
www.babycenter.com...
Have a read the survival rate is actually quite high for premature babies .
edit on 22-8-2018 by Saiker because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Saiker
and, I've answered all those points in my first post on this thread...
no, we don't value life less now than we did before the age of birth control... we had no problem back then pouring agent orange out of our planes and onto kids, we had no problem when the old english poor houses were in operation... the old indian schools or the trail of tears... the further back in time you go, the more it seems that life was really rather cheap!!!
sanger is often accused of being a racist and eugenicist. but I have to ask you something here.
if no one is forcing the birth control or abortion on anyone, how can it be?? what were the real eugenicists thinking and planning back in her time?? oh ya, forcibly or secretly sterilizing those who were considered "undesirable", be they the native americans, the african americans, the mentally handicapped, or just the poor.
it's all about population control and how to keep from having a population that is too great for the resources available to sustain it. and how to cope when it gets too great. gee if the local deer population gets too great, scientists will go out and lace some treats with birth control to reduce it, the limits on how many deer you can hunt will be increased. we consider this humane because if nothing is done, we will have deer starving to death come winter.
well we can't give out hunting licenses allowing people to hunt humans but we have found other ways to cope. germany chose concentration camps and ovens. england at one time chose to lock them away in poor houses, out of site out of mind, many kids never made it out of the places. when they finally closed the places down and let the people out of them, they just couldn't cope. china's one child policy, our old sterilization programs....
I'm sorry, but of them all, I see making birth control readily available, easily obtainable, along with legal abortions... giving the women the right to decide weather to utilize them seems to be the most humane and effective method to date!!
writing laws making abortion illegal at conception, or once a heartbeat is picked up, is an all or nothing tactic. especially when they just neglect to add in any exceptions in the first draft of the bill... and even with the exceptions, you end up with some crazy crap happening!
and, I've answered all those points in my first post on this thread...
no, we don't value life less now than we did before the age of birth control... we had no problem back then pouring agent orange out of our planes and onto kids, we had no problem when the old english poor houses were in operation... the old indian schools or the trail of tears... the further back in time you go, the more it seems that life was really rather cheap!!!
sanger is often accused of being a racist and eugenicist. but I have to ask you something here.
if no one is forcing the birth control or abortion on anyone, how can it be?? what were the real eugenicists thinking and planning back in her time?? oh ya, forcibly or secretly sterilizing those who were considered "undesirable", be they the native americans, the african americans, the mentally handicapped, or just the poor.
it's all about population control and how to keep from having a population that is too great for the resources available to sustain it. and how to cope when it gets too great. gee if the local deer population gets too great, scientists will go out and lace some treats with birth control to reduce it, the limits on how many deer you can hunt will be increased. we consider this humane because if nothing is done, we will have deer starving to death come winter.
well we can't give out hunting licenses allowing people to hunt humans but we have found other ways to cope. germany chose concentration camps and ovens. england at one time chose to lock them away in poor houses, out of site out of mind, many kids never made it out of the places. when they finally closed the places down and let the people out of them, they just couldn't cope. china's one child policy, our old sterilization programs....
I'm sorry, but of them all, I see making birth control readily available, easily obtainable, along with legal abortions... giving the women the right to decide weather to utilize them seems to be the most humane and effective method to date!!
writing laws making abortion illegal at conception, or once a heartbeat is picked up, is an all or nothing tactic. especially when they just neglect to add in any exceptions in the first draft of the bill... and even with the exceptions, you end up with some crazy crap happening!
originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Saiker
Thou shall not murder.
This is the commandment. Not kill.
Abortion is murder.
The End.
And killing the living is murder as well. This is the most twisted argument I've ever come across.
From so-called 'right to lifers'. Life is 'sacred' as long as it's unborn, but once it's born - killing is just fine. The Death Penalty, Drone strikes, endless war, toxic pollution, you name it -
How many unwanted babies have you raised to adulthool?
originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Saiker
Thou shall not murder.
This is the commandment. Not kill.
Abortion is murder.
The End.
not everyone believes in magic
the end
originally posted by: introvert
originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Saiker
Thou shall not murder.
This is the commandment. Not kill.
Abortion is murder.
The End.
A woman's body can naturally abort a child, from what I understand.
Does that make god a murderer, since he omnipotent and omniscient?
I'm mostly pro choice but that's the most far fetched illogical response to abortion I've ever read and I'm not religious.
Maybe if people didn't use abortion as a form of birth control we could find some compromise on the issue
a reply to: JDmOKI
the hebrew god commanded that abortions be forced on women if their husband believed they might have been unfaithful for them for crying out loud!! so, I guess it's okay to "murder" the illegitimate fetuses?
yes, because shelling out the money and getting an abortion is so much fun isn't it?? people don't use abortion as a form of birth control. people might find that their birth control failed, they might be too stupid to use the birth control (like the teenagers), or heck they may have wanted the baby but later found out that there was something seriously wrong!!!
but your statement is the equivalent of me saying that as long as the prolifers are refusing to utilize abortion as a remedy for dangerous complications in pregnancies, there will be no compromise!! it seems like the pro-choice crowd has done alot to make efficient birth control easily obtainable and affordable and to see that the teens are educated on the importance of safe sex, all of which it seems that many within the prolife crowd have fought and are still fighting against.
what have the prolife crowd done to address the problem that I bring up on these threads? The unwillingness of members of their group who work in the medical profession and those religiously run hospitals to reach for that abortion option before the women is in a state of crisis even when it is so clear that the fetus will not survive?
The abortion rate is steadily dropping, but is the rise in the maternal death rate part of the cost for this to happen??
the hebrew god commanded that abortions be forced on women if their husband believed they might have been unfaithful for them for crying out loud!! so, I guess it's okay to "murder" the illegitimate fetuses?
yes, because shelling out the money and getting an abortion is so much fun isn't it?? people don't use abortion as a form of birth control. people might find that their birth control failed, they might be too stupid to use the birth control (like the teenagers), or heck they may have wanted the baby but later found out that there was something seriously wrong!!!
but your statement is the equivalent of me saying that as long as the prolifers are refusing to utilize abortion as a remedy for dangerous complications in pregnancies, there will be no compromise!! it seems like the pro-choice crowd has done alot to make efficient birth control easily obtainable and affordable and to see that the teens are educated on the importance of safe sex, all of which it seems that many within the prolife crowd have fought and are still fighting against.
what have the prolife crowd done to address the problem that I bring up on these threads? The unwillingness of members of their group who work in the medical profession and those religiously run hospitals to reach for that abortion option before the women is in a state of crisis even when it is so clear that the fetus will not survive?
The abortion rate is steadily dropping, but is the rise in the maternal death rate part of the cost for this to happen??
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