"Progress" = Stuck in the Past

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

The conservatives do idealize America's past. I believe they wish to preserve what was good but keep the improvements. If we can agree on what those things are.

The progressives also idealize the past. Unlike the conservatives, the past they idealize is the Soviet Union's past. When the Communists were in control. They want to relive the first half of the last century of Russian history. When they enjoyed so much success, it was a paradise on earth for them. And if anyone disagreed... How many dead in Ukraine?

And here all along I thought "Progress" was stuck in the future that never proves itself worthy.

never mind making "America" the best place for the entirety of its citizens

If our administration was doing anything remotely like this you might have a point. Destroying everything to lower unemployment a bit i not what I would call making "America" the best place for the entirety of its citizens.

And the obvious conclusion from what you said is that we should elect centrists, but I didn't see that in your post.

originally posted by: WUNK22
Unless it comes to civil war statutes, we stomp them into the past! Bury it deep down inside and pretend it never happened! Progressivism a reply to: Annee

Clinging to the white confederate war statues as a symbol of what exactly?

I graduated high school in 1964.

It is still shocking to me that a Civil Rights Act had to be forced in my lifetime.

And ya know what? The opposition is the same demographic that fought against Marriage Rights and Pro Choice.

a reply to: Annee

"Clinging to the white confederate war statues as a symbol of what exactly?"

Truth and honesty re: our past history. We should preserve our history not just to honor things we liked but also to learn from things we didn't like. We should not rewrite and erase parts of it in the service of propaganda.

"I graduated high school in 1964.

It is still shocking to me that a Civil Rights Act had to be forced in my lifetime.

And ya know what? The opposition is the same demographic that fought against Marriage Rights and Pro Choice."

Southern Democrats? Or do you mean white people? All races had slavery. White people were the race that ended slavery - worldwide. Except for some places in Africa.

originally posted by: toms54

Truth and honesty re: our past history. We should preserve our history not just to honor things we liked but also to learn from things we didn't like. We should not rewrite and erase parts of it in the service of propaganda.

Southern Democrats? Or do you mean white people? All races had slavery. White people were the race that ended slavery - worldwide. Except for some places in Africa.

Oh, I doubt our Confederate history is going to be erased.

Truth and honesty? Actually, I think we're getting a lot closer to that now - - by replacing war "hero" statues with the real heroes of that time.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: toms54

Truth and honesty re: our past history. We should preserve our history not just to honor things we liked but also to learn from things we didn't like. We should not rewrite and erase parts of it in the service of propaganda.

Southern Democrats? Or do you mean white people? All races had slavery. White people were the race that ended slavery - worldwide. Except for some places in Africa.

Oh, I doubt our Confederate history is going to be erased.

Truth and honesty? Actually, I think we're getting a lot closer to that now - - by replacing war "hero" statues with the real heroes of that time.

The statues are memorials. Like gravestones. Put up your own. Don't try to knock mine down.

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: toms54

Truth and honesty re: our past history. We should preserve our history not just to honor things we liked but also to learn from things we didn't like. We should not rewrite and erase parts of it in the service of propaganda.

Southern Democrats? Or do you mean white people? All races had slavery. White people were the race that ended slavery - worldwide. Except for some places in Africa.

Oh, I doubt our Confederate history is going to be erased.

Truth and honesty? Actually, I think we're getting a lot closer to that now - - by replacing war "hero" statues with the real heroes of that time.

The statues are memorials. Like gravestones. Put up your own. Don't try to knock mine down.

They can be moved to a museum.

They and what they represent does not need to stare me in the face when I walk through town.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: toms54

Truth and honesty re: our past history. We should preserve our history not just to honor things we liked but also to learn from things we didn't like. We should not rewrite and erase parts of it in the service of propaganda.

Southern Democrats? Or do you mean white people? All races had slavery. White people were the race that ended slavery - worldwide. Except for some places in Africa.

Oh, I doubt our Confederate history is going to be erased.

Truth and honesty? Actually, I think we're getting a lot closer to that now - - by replacing war "hero" statues with the real heroes of that time.

The statues are memorials. Like gravestones. Put up your own. Don't try to knock mine down.

They can be moved to a museum.

They and what they represent does not need to stare me in the face when I walk through town.

Then we'll see how long yours last.

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: toms54

Truth and honesty re: our past history. We should preserve our history not just to honor things we liked but also to learn from things we didn't like. We should not rewrite and erase parts of it in the service of propaganda.

Southern Democrats? Or do you mean white people? All races had slavery. White people were the race that ended slavery - worldwide. Except for some places in Africa.

Oh, I doubt our Confederate history is going to be erased.

Truth and honesty? Actually, I think we're getting a lot closer to that now - - by replacing war "hero" statues with the real heroes of that time.

The statues are memorials. Like gravestones. Put up your own. Don't try to knock mine down.

They can be moved to a museum.

They and what they represent does not need to stare me in the face when I walk through town.

Then we'll see how long yours last.

My what?

Would I prefer statues of just regular people making a difference?

Yes, I would.

a reply to: Annee

Then go commission some getting built... instead its GO OUT OF OUR MINDS over old relics built aeons ago. My point of contention on those is only people stuck in the past are going to go insane over stuff built 100 150 years ago as if it even has any bearing on today. I mean before all the hype machine, were there wreaths of rose being placed around their necks everyday? Were there people kneeling before them, worshiping them? Because the energy put against them is tantamount to other worshiping them; to attack them only trolls out people into taking a position on them that otherwise wouldn't even care. Its making something out of what was borderline nothing; its forcing people to dwell in the past that 98% of which surely had better things to think and do about. Such as figuring out a new statue to build, starting a gofundme to do so, etc.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: Annee

Then go commission some getting built... instead its GO OUT OF OUR MINDS over old relics built aeons ago. My point of contention on those is only people stuck in the past are going to go insane over stuff built 100 150 years ago as if it even has any bearing on today. I mean before all the hype machine, were there wreaths of rose being placed around their necks everyday? Were there people kneeling before them, worshiping them? Because the energy put against them is tantamount to other worshiping them; to attack them only trolls out people into taking a position on them that otherwise wouldn't even care. Its making something out of what was borderline nothing; its forcing people to dwell in the past that 98% of which surely had better things to think and do about. Such as figuring out a new statue to build, starting a gofundme to do so, etc.

Some people are working to replace offensive war "hero" monuments with people who were just as vital and relevant during that period of time.

Seeing/recognizing the past in full - - beyond what is/was projected by a few in power - - brings the past current - - as it should.

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: toms54

Truth and honesty re: our past history. We should preserve our history not just to honor things we liked but also to learn from things we didn't like. We should not rewrite and erase parts of it in the service of propaganda.

Southern Democrats? Or do you mean white people? All races had slavery. White people were the race that ended slavery - worldwide. Except for some places in Africa.

Oh, I doubt our Confederate history is going to be erased.

Truth and honesty? Actually, I think we're getting a lot closer to that now - - by replacing war "hero" statues with the real heroes of that time.

The statues are memorials. Like gravestones. Put up your own. Don't try to knock mine down.

They can be moved to a museum.

They and what they represent does not need to stare me in the face when I walk through town.

The statues are memorials. Like gravestones. Put up your own. Don't try to knock mine down.

Then we'll see how long yours last.

Sorry but "your" statues of slave-promoting traitors have no place in these United States.

Again, if these statues of these men were preserved in statue form because we poured burning hot metal over their bodies while they were still alive, then I'd be ok with it... as they would stand as an example of what happens to traitors and those that promote people outright owning other people based on race (or anything for that matter). At least I could look at their smug faces and know they were rotting inside. But that's not the case... so no. They are not to be glorified. We won't be forgetting the evils of the past whether they stand there or not.

a reply to: Annee

"Replacing" history eh.

You mean iconoclasm.

Like every conquering religion / ideology (same thing) has ever done with the monuments erected before them.

That's not going to create a stir, lead to an ideological divide, nope!

It wasnt good enough spitting in the eye of such a statue as you walk by it, assuming you even knew anything about who it might have been about, nope, you gotta go tearing down history in a big public display, poking everyone who disagrees (for whatever reason(s)) in the eye as you do it.

But like I OP, dredging up this ancient history and making it the zeitgeist is exactly the "Stuck in the Past" (unable to move on without strife & destruction first) is what I was talking about.

originally posted by: okrian
Again, if these statues of these men were preserved in statue form because we poured burning hot metal over their bodies while they were still alive, then I'd be ok with it...

Because two wrongs make a right, correct?

Being just like your "enemy" is to be the same as your enemy, an enemy to us all if the others really are our enemies, is another point I was trying to make in the subtext of the OP.

And this absoolutist obsessionism, that the ONLY reason EVERYONE in the South fought was FOR Slavery... only the Sith deal in absolutes.

a reply to: Annee

Some people are working to replace offensive war "hero" monuments with people who were just as vital and relevant during that period of time.

And to think just one page ago you said this:

Individuals, groups can still cling to their personal traditions.

So which is it Annee? Can I still hold my culture and traditions dear? Or do you get to change them to suit your poor little sensibilities? I drove through a town in Ohio once... off the beaten trail... and saw a huge sign proudly proclaiming that I was in "the birthplace of William Tecumseh Sherman." I almost drove off the road! The worst war criminal since Adolph Hitler (possibly longer), who single-handedly killed more women, children, and elderly than anyone else during the War of Northern Aggression...who gladly turned a blind eye while women were raped and tortured under his command... who was personally responsible for untold numbers of 'freed' slaves starving to death because he didn't like them following him. And they're PROUD OF IT!

Talk about offended!

And yet, I didn't say a word to anyone about it... I never called for it to be taken down... I never even berated the residents of that town. Their town, their culture... let me out of here and I'll never visit again. Not my culture (obviously!).

But YOU... oh, no, you see a statue to our greatest war heroes, and you can't even recognize them as heroes without using quotes... and worse, you can't stand to have the light reflected off one of their memorials touch your precious retinas. You want them destroyed, and damn anyone who gets in the way of that destruction. My heritage and my culture be damned! I can have it back when you get through re-writing it, right?

Seeing/recognizing the past in full - - beyond what is/was projected by a few in power - - brings the past current - - as it should.

There are parts of the past I don't want current... slavery springs to mind. I'm sorry you do.

But I do want to remember the past... remember those who bravely fought against an invading foe: Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, et al. I also want to remember the great George Washington Carver... Martin Luther King Jr... Rosa Parks. I want to remember all of it, because it is all worth remembering. Seems you want to remember the bad only and tear down any good.

Which is what the OP talks about.

Now GET OUT OF MY CULTURE! You don't understand it, and you, just like so many in history, just want to destroy that which you cannot understand.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I don't see the correlation.

Of course, individuals can still cling to their personal traditions.

What does that have to do with displays in the public square?

Would it be appropriate to erect a statue of Hitler in a Jewish demographic?

Oh, but it's history - - you can come face to face with him everyday as you walk to the store.

originally posted by: Quadrivium

originally posted by: Annee



Who tries to open doors?

Gentlemen

Who tries to keep them closed?

Feminist who hate men opening doors for them

Quad

Ok, y'all know that sh-t is funny............
yes, I have been drinking, sorry Redneck......

a reply to: Annee

Of course, individuals can still cling to their personal traditions.

What does that have to do with displays in the public square?

Those are our forefathers. Do you seriously not get that?

Would it be appropriate to erect a statue of Hitler in a Jewish demographic?

We're not erecting statues of Robert E. Lee in Pennsylvania. They're erected where his descendants live... where he was from. A statue of Hitler might be understandable in Germany; I don't really know and I don't really care. It's not my culture. Trying to equate a statue of Lee in the South with a statue of Hitler in Israel is beyond ridiculous and just emphasizes my point above: you understand absolutely NOTHING about Southern culture or the people who live here... and what you don't understand, you want to destroy. There's a name for that, you know.

You seriously need to get the Hades out of my culture. I'm not in here disparaging yours.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Quadrivium

Don't be sorry... I thought it was kinda funny.

TheRedneck