Farenheit 451 in real life? local gov requires "lock box" for keys & alarm code for fire dept

There seems to be an alarming trend where some municipalities are requiring businesses and some residential dwellings, along with places like schools, and other "official" government buildings to install lock boxes which would contain the keys, alarm codes, building map, utilities layout and blue prints for the building. The box has a master key which supposedly will only be accessible by the Fire Department and possibly EMS & police (depends upon municipality who has access). It seems that the municipalities require the building owners to buy a specific brand of box and specific models so that a master key can be used and is compatible in all buildings. These boxes can range from $350-800 for small boxes and much more for larger boxes (apartment complexes, strip malls, etc).

One resident asked a representative of the lock box company who would be responsible if the box is breached and the building burglarized or damaged and one claimed that their insurance company would not cover them in cases such as this (IDK if this is true or if it was a tactic to see what the manufacturer would say & feed opposition to the regulation). The representative avoided directly answering this and basically said to find better insurance.

Many people are very concerned about the possibility of people accessing their building, especially people in the medical field where the building houses things like patient records (HIPPA laws and such), pharmacies, accountants, attorneys, insurance agencies, gun stores, etc. I can't see how having the keys and alarm code to the building sitting right outside the door being a problem with any of these businesses.

Many other owners were worried because they don't have access to the box themselves, only the FD "has access" (because only the master key can access these!). IDK if this statement was wrong or if some municipalities have the locks set to only use one key, where the original key (bought with the unit) doesn't work. This would be a problem when alarm codes or keys are changed.

Of course this regulation, which the failure to comply can result in a $500-1,000 fine and/or 30 days in jail (for the first offense!), is being implemented for the safety of the brave firemen, and there is no cost to high to ensure the safety of these fine men and women AND it is less expensive to the property owner should they have a fire. The reason this is safer is because they don't have to break the doors down and some other reasons I didn't quite follow. Listening to the mayor or councilman speak it was one of those times when it was so clear he was BS'ing about the "saftey reason" - it was clear as day he was lying through his teeth and I had the suspicion that he was getting paid (either as a kickback somehow or via political contributions) to use this company due to the way he talked about them and their product. This guy was either a very bad liar or it just gets easier to detect as I get older - JMO FWIW. It is very clear that this is a "control" thing and reminds me of something that would happen in East Germany or North Korea - again JMO FWIW...

A lot of business owners signed a petition opposing the regulation and wanted an "opt-out" option stating that they would take responsibility for damage done by accessing the building, but this wasn't even considered or discussed at the meeting. There was LOTS of support for those who opposed this and many think it will eventually be required in small, single dwelling houses, everyone's home basically.

Looking at these boxes that are required, they look like they are well built (from a company video at least...) but I would think that there would be ways to access these and as more municipalities require them there will be more incentive for criminals to find easy ways to do this, even like selling master keys online, or tools to open the lock (yes they exist). Many determined people could open this box, how long it takes and how much noise is made is another matter.

This entire idea seems like a potential disaster. It seems odd that they are creating a regulation "for safety purposes" that may end up hurting a lot more people than what it could ever potentially, remotely possibly save. Also, there weren't complaints about this "saftey issue" before - IDK how the firemen survived before they had lock boxes with keys.

It does sound like a scam.

Its been over 100 years of firefighting service and yet no of them needed keys.

Break down the door and rush. Dont wait til you have your hand melted on the knob because your rushing to key in the door.

My business is a secure facility. My county now requires this after hours, fire department access for all business, here it’s call a Knox box. I fought with the fire inspector over access to my building. He wanted a remote lever outside the electric gate that would provide the fire department access onto my property. The only problem is it would allow anyone else access as well. We settled on installing a knox box at the gate with the gate code and building keys in it.

My real gripe is I don’t have real fire protection in my county. There is a private, subscription based service and a small volunteer department. My six thousand a year property taxes don’t get me many services. Only police protection, no fire department, no garbage pick up, not even a street light. Yet one day a County fire inspector from building codes enforcement, showed up at the door to check exit lights, count fire extinguishers, and demand that I install a Knox box. It sounds to me like someone’s cousin sells Knox boxes. My taxes does fund codes enforcement, the bastereds.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

The box, known as a "Knox Box", is a requirement under the National Fire Code (NFPA), and has been adopted by most every major municipality across the country for many (many) years. This is nothing new, even remotely. The fines and/or penalties for failure to comply vary by jurisdiction, but the ruling has been in place for decades. Typically, the biggest penalty of all though is, the local AHJ ("Authority Having Jurisdiction" - formerly 'Fire Marshal') will not issue a 'Certificate of Occupancy' (CO) without one being installed. This is HUGE because no one can use the building until the CO has been issued.

Knox boxes, if installed properly, are very difficult if not impossible to compromise. Oh sure, a person could probably open one with a torch or something, but they're not something a common street criminal could open. They're like a miniature safe/vault. It's a box about 3" tall by 3" wide by 2" deep. And the lock is designed in such a way that traditional lock picking tools will not be able to open one. The keys to open one are tightly controlled, and no, EMS and LEO's usually do not have a key, only Fire, and for good reason too!

The Knox-box itself does not usually have anything but a key inside. They don't have codes to disable alarms because they don't care if they set off alarms upon entry. In fact, the more alarms they set off the better! Fire doesn't care if they set off a burgler alarm as an LEO response is usually required anyway. This is an extra deterrent to would be thieves too.

Now to plans of the building. Immediately inside the door which the key inside the Knox-box opens is another Code required device, and this is called a Fire Alarm Annunciator panel which will indicate what alarms have been triggered, show a location and also show the location of the Code required Fire Alarm Master Panel and/or Fire Command Center. Again, this is all required by Code, and has been for some time.

Typically, most of these items are not required for Residential Buildings, only Commercial.

Here is an example of a local adopted Code. This is just one example, all municipalities will be similar but may differ slightly. This example if from the town of Superior in Wisconsin (it just happened to be one I located).

Buildings requiring a KnoxBox:

(a) Any building that has installed within it an
automatic fire suppression system, a
remotely monitored automatic fire alarm system, or
an elevator will need a Knox
Box.

(b) Any commercial building that has more than two stor
ies will need a Knox Box.

(c) Any building containing hazardous materials requiri
ng the filing of a Tier II
report will need a Knox Box.

(d) Residential buildings with eight or more rental uni
ts will need a Knox Box

Link

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Why would they even bother with an alarm code when there is a fire blazing? hahaha I can picture a couple of dumb firemen doodling around with an alarm box trying to put the right code into a half melted alarm box with their fat finger gloved hands while the building is burning to the ground.

Also this is absolutely unconstitutional. The government cannot force you to buy a product. This is precisely the problem with making someone have to buy an ID so they can vote. I can see if they grandfathered in the existing buildings and then made it a regulation for any new buildings.

This is crazy. Look at it like this. If I have just door locks, people can brake in and access the building just by defeating the lock and on top of that the authorities are not notified. However if I buy an alarm it brings an extra layer of security that has to be defeated. Now that they introduced this new lock box deal, it takes away that second layer of security (the alarm) Now I am back to square one because now all they have to do is breach the box. That alarm is now rendered useless. This absolutely makes it far far easier to get away with breaking into a building. This is ridiculous, if I were one of those building owners I would be infuriated!

This is nothing new or bad.
I would rather them have keys instead of just going through doors with an axe.
They still use the axe anyways but the option of keys is a good thing.

Unless firefighters are evil satanic demons controlled by the illuminati,I see no issues.

a reply to: DrumsRfun

Read my post above yours, this new lock box deal renders the alarm useless

I am a Fireman (actually driver now) in a large city. We have the Knox box on most large buildings, the key to unlock it is in the truck locked up with a code like the Knox box.
The reason for these are no conspiracy, it’s to save the business money. If the fire alarm goes off in the middle of the night, we use it to reset the alarm rather that go through a $5000-$20,000 door. Likewise if there is a fire we are not stomping and dragging hose through glass. If we go to the same place more than 3x in a time frame, we are suppose to report it and they can be fined for having us out for a dirty sensor wasting our time when there may be life threatening calls we should be on.

a reply to: Nickn3

gee. I'm so surprised they recommended that brand. I wonder how long it will be until people can print a master key, bump keys or a master set?

a reply to: Alien Abduct

A lock box is a small box and isn't electronic (not ones I use)
A fire panel (alarm) is wired and monitored for fire protection.
How do you get a security risk from that??

If we REALLY want to talk security....a lock is a tool to keep you at ease.
If someone wants in,they are getting in.


I read your post and can't make much sense out of it.
Spending a bit of cash on fire protection is good for insurance and better safety for the people.
I see 0 negatives with regulations for fire protection.

originally posted by: Alien Abduct
a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Why would they even bother with an alarm code when there is a fire blazing? hahaha I can picture a couple of dumb firemen doodling around with an alarm box trying to put the right code into a half melted alarm box with their fat finger gloved hands while the building is burning to the ground.

Also this is absolutely unconstitutional. The government cannot force you to buy a product. This is precisely the problem with making someone have to buy an ID so they can vote. I can see if they grandfathered in the existing buildings and then made it a regulation for any new buildings.

This is crazy. Look at it like this. If I have just door locks, people can brake in and access the building just by defeating the lock and on top of that the authorities are not notified. However if I buy an alarm it brings an extra layer of security that has to be defeated. Now that they introduced this new lock box deal, it takes away that second layer of security (the alarm) Now I am back to square one because now all they have to do is breach the box. That alarm is now rendered useless. This absolutely makes it far far easier to get away with breaking into a building. This is ridiculous, if I were one of those building owners would be infuriated!

Im guessing your breakfast cereal infuriates you. Go visit a fire station and ask them about it. Do a ride out. It may help your attitude.

a reply to: Alien Abduct

It's not new, and it doesn't have anything to do with security alarms, and it doesn't defeat them. It only contains a key to the building. All Fire can do is enter the building and deal with the "fire" alarm (either by resetting it, or dealing with the fire condition). Any security alarms will still do whatever they're supposed to do.

ETA - Oh and to your statement about what Fire does at the panel... Believe me, if the fire panel is melted they're not going to be messing around with it (the problem is pretty obvious at that point). However, one thing Fire CAN do at one of these panels is initiate (or turn off) what is known as "smoke control" (depending on the size of the building). This is an important function in fire control, especially in Assembly type occupancies. It uses the building HVAC fans to pressurize occupied areas and exhaust through non-occupied areas. So, for example, exit stairwells are pressurized and adjacent areas are exhausted. This pushes the smoke OUT of areas where people are, and exhausts it through areas where people are not, thereby allowing them more vital time to exit the facility. Or, in a multi-story building, the involved floor is pressurized and the floors above and below it are exhausted.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

One good bump key later...

Second line is sneaking away under cover of darkness with all sorts of goodies.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Trust me, the whole thing is taken pretty seriously all the way down the line.

A building Owner, for example, will never even see a Knox Box key. They will be shipped the back portion of the box only. The cover to the box is shipped to the FD, and is not installed until the CO is issued. It's all very official and very serious.

a reply to: wylekat

Guys, how many times do we have to say this???

The Knox-Box ONLY has keys to the front door. It DOES NOT have any way to defeat security alarms!! The only difference is broken glass/door or not...that's IT!

It takes more time to open the knox box, get the key, open the door and go inside than it does to just smash the window and go inside. All it does is get you inside the building...that's ALL.

Incidentally, Knox-boxes get installed at more locations than just the front entrances of buildings. In high rise building there are often Knox boxes located at the elevator banks on the main floor too. Inside these boxes are the elevator control keys. There are other applications for them too.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: wylekat

Guys, how many times do we have to say this???

The Knox-Box ONLY has keys to the front door. It DOES NOT have any way to defeat security alarms!! The only difference is broken glass/door or not...that's IT!

It takes more time to open the knox box, get the key, open the door and go inside than it does to just smash the window and go inside. All it does is get you inside the building...that's ALL.

If you're smart enough (insane enough) to make a bump key, alarms are easily defeated as well. I leave that to the professional larcenists.

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: wylekat

If you're smart enough (insane enough) to make a bump key, alarms are easily defeated as well. I leave that to the professional larcenists.

Bump keys are bought,you don't make them....its the key the locksmith uses to cut your key and it is purchased at the locksmith, if they will even sell it to you....they aren't dumb.
I get the feeling that you don't have much knowledge on locks,security or security alarms...saying they are easy to get by....I have a feeling you don't really know much about that?

When it comes to alarms...you might have watched too many movies.

Also,when it comes to a lock....if someone wants in,they get in.

This thread has NOTHING to do with security....people just dragged it there for some strange reason,grabbing at straws for something to be outraged about.

No security issue and no conspiracy....this is basic and standard.IMO