What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

a reply to: Joecroft

I would say youre to focused on the exoteric...your thinking imo is on target...but define the Hebrew letters, of the name of God in order...and you may come close to understanding the "in the beginnining" verses of Genesis. Think..fire, out of water, air/earth, water

a reply to: DISRAELI

you are a very studious mind, have you ever thought to research these old testament tenets outside of the veil of christianity?

You absolutely cannot attribute Roman or Greek empiricism certainly not ridiculous King James thoughts to Hebrew, perhaps Sumerian (of which Abraham was a devotee). How can you argue the semantics of an unfounded people? Christians have nothing to do do with Hebrews, or Jews...utterly ludicrous.

God, Gods arm, and the work It does.

Oh and Satan is God's left arm, and just a reflection from the center of God's inward spiralling Spirit.

God is not symmetric.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Raggedyman

The Bible states “….he will guide you into ALL Truth” in John 16:13…

Which means, the Holy Spirit can reveal any type of truth to any man.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.…
…
…

Who is the "you" in that verse addressing? Is it just "any man"? And what else does the account mention about what type of truth it's talking about?

John 16:12-17

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 However, when that one* comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares it to you. 16 In a little while you will see me no longer, and again, in a little while you will see me.”

17 At that some of his disciples said to one another: “What does he mean by saying to us, ‘In a little while you will not see me, and again, in a little while you will see me,’ and, ‘because I am going to the Father’?”

*: Both “that one” and “he” in vss. 13 and 14 refer back to “the helper” in vs. 7. Jesus used “the helper” (which has the masculine gender in Greek) as a personification of the holy spirit, an impersonal force, which has the neuter gender in Greek.

A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.

Some individual texts that refer to the holy spirit (“Holy Ghost,” KJ) might seem to indicate personality. For example, the holy spirit is referred to as a helper (Greek, pa·raʹkle·tos; “Comforter,” KJ; “Advocate,” JB, NE) that ‘teaches,’ ‘bears witness,’ ‘speaks’ and ‘hears.’ (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13). Since the former references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person, to understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the latter texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God’s holy spirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood. It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something to be personified. For example, wisdom is said to have “children.” (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. (Rom. 5:14, 21) While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.

The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will.—Ps. 104:30; 2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 4:31. Which fits all the scriptures that refer to that spirit even the ones where the bible writers employ a figure of speech personifying God’s holy spirit.

The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.

Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit. (See also Revelation 7:10; 22:1, 3.)

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.

Just so Trinitarian eisegesis doesn't confuse people regarding John 16:15 (see start of comment). John 3:35:

The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

So someone else gave Jesus "all thing into his hand"; namely "The Father", who the Scriptures also describe as "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph 1:3). That's how giving stuff works. Also it implies that the receiver didn't originally have what was given him. So a Trinitarian interpretation of John 16:15 doesn't work.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Joecroft

The ichthys (or the "Jesus fish" you see on the back of cars) is actually the vesica pisces, symbolizing that the Son (Jesus) is the middle part of two joined "circles".

Does Christianity Have a Visible Symbol? Awake!—1976

What about the symbol of a fish? Objects dated as far back as the second century C.E. have been found bearing this figure along with the Greek word for fish, ICHTHÝS. This is understood by many as a cipher for the Greek expression Iesous CHristos THeou Yios Soter, meaning “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.” Is the fish a truly Christian symbol?

According to The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, fish frequently appear in ancient pagan symbolism, often apart from water scenes. “In such cases,” notes this reference work, “it would seem to have symbolic significance, possibly to represent deity, power, fecundity, etc.”

The same publication further notes that certain Jews adopted use of the fish symbol from pagan religious customs, adding: “It is probable that the considerations mentioned [in this regard] account in part for the appearance of the fish in the art of the oldest Christian catacombs. How early the Greek word for ‘fish’ (ichthýs) came to be interpreted as a cipher for ‘Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior’ . . . we do not know; but once this identification was made, the fish became a standard Christian symbol.”

The Bible, however, sets forth no visible symbol for Christianity. ... Jesus taught that, rather than through visible symbols, “by this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”​—John 13: 35.

While visible symbols have always been a feature of non-Biblical religions, they were absent from Christianity at its beginning. ...

The book Holocaust Politics, published in 2001, written by John K. Roth, professor of philosophy of religion, named Council for Advancement and Support of Education's U.S. National Professor of the Year by The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching in 1988, chosen to direct the Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, says: “If more people practiced versions of what the Jehovah’s Witnesses preach and practice, the Holocaust could have been prevented and genocide would scourge the world no more.”

“Across Asia and beyond,” says the journal Asiaweek, “power-hungry leaders are cynically manipulating people’s religious sentiments for their own needs.” As a result, the journal warns: “The world threatens to sink into madness.” A prominent religious leader in the United States declared: “You’ve got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops.” His solution? “Blow them all away in the name of the Lord.” By contrast, the Bible says: “If anyone makes the statement: ‘I love God,’ and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar.” (1 John 4:20) Jesus even said: “Continue to love your enemies.” (Matthew 5:44) How many religions can you think of whose members engage in war?

Context:

Song 141 Searching for Friends of Peace (with lyrics)

a reply to: BlueJacket
The Incarnation and Trinity debates always centred on the Greek texts of the New Testament.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: redletter
Jesus was born as a human... He was a real human. He was not faking being a human.

Yes, I agree. That is part of what "incarnation" means.
The point is covered in another of my threads;
Jesus is a man
I will not discuss these matters here, but there are other Incarnation threads available.
God and man; The meaning of Incarnation

"God is not a man..." (Numbers 23:19, KJV).
"God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24, NWT)

End of story.

But anyway, the word "spirit" is used in 2 different ways above (I've bolded the correct meaning for the phrase "God is a Spirit" below):

The Greek pneuʹma (spirit) comes from pneʹo, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ruʹach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ruʹach and pneuʹma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.)

Source: Spirit, Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2

Hebrews 1:7a (also Ps 104:4):

Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits...

That's talking about "spirit persons", just like in the phrase "God is a Spirit".

a reply to: whereislogic
John ch1 vv1-18. End of story.
I go through the whole thing in the listed threads, so I'm not going to go into it here.

a reply to: DISRAELI
I wouldn't if I were in your shoes either. Who needs more interpretations and eisegesis tainted with paganism anyway, plenty of that around already. The bible is clear on this point: God is not a man nor a God-man. And nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called a “God-man” or “God incarnate.” Such assumptions are strictly human illusions tainted with paganism.—John 10:36; Luke 1:34, 35; 2:21. The Bible reveals that Jesus is God’s Son and as such he was not and is not God.

For those interested:

Cardinal John O’Connor stated about the Trinity: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.”
...
Does the identity of God have to be “a very profound mystery”? It did not seem so to Jesus. In his prayer to his Father, Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father when he said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) If we believe Jesus and understand the plain teaching of the Bible, we will respect him as the divine Son of God that he is. We will also worship Jehovah as “the only true God.”

Source (there's an article as well but I don't feel like linking it, full article in video anyway):

Notice what jcdied4all mentions below at 4:53:
"First of all, I will never watch your video. That's a promise.
...
Because of this alone, again I win.

Giggle Giggle Giggle
HAHAHAHA"

I've encountered this attitude a lot on ATS, I suspect it's no different with most Trinitarians who would read this comment. It's sad how people can't see how this relates to the prohecy at 2 Timothy 4:3,4. For me, this unreasonable behaviour and attitude of aversion to biblical truths as described in more detail in that text, is one of the most convincing pieces of evidence, or clues, that I'm on the right track. So I do recommend fighting that barrier to gain what Paul refers to as "an accurate knowledge of truth". To resist it and sort of push through your own conditioned aversion for this type of information (conditioned by this system of things and the god of this system of things, by means of the teachings of demons). It's not like a couple of minutes of your time is going to kill ya Some people spend more time making a comment. Proverbs 18:2

A stupid person takes no pleasure in understanding;

He would rather disclose what is in his heart.

Which is quite obvious from the way jcdied4all does it below:


And as long as we're bringing up old threads anyway, my commentary in these threads contains more details and discussion about either "the Incarnation", "the Trinity" or John 1 (I also commented at the end of DISRAELI's 2nd linked thread):

The Word was with God, and the Word was A god, page 7
Do you know the truth? Is Jesus God? Find out here!, page 3
Absolute Proof Jesus Christ is God, page 7

originally posted by: whereislogic

Just so Trinitarian eisegesis doesn't confuse people regarding John 16:15 (see start of comment). John 3:35:

The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

So someone else gave Jesus "all thing into his hand"; namely "The Father", who the Scriptures also describe as "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph 1:3). That's how giving stuff works. Also it implies that the receiver didn't originally have what was given him. So a Trinitarian interpretation of John 16:15 doesn't work.

edit:

John 8:28
Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things.

That one is a little more relevant to John 16:15 (the bolded part).

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Well, in my opinion you can't have the unity without the duality. If you take the wave or particle aspect away then you don't have the "middle ground" either.

Think of it like a Venn Diagram (someone else mentioned this earlier), there are three distinct "sections" of the diagram, the two circles and then the area where they overlap. If you take one of the circles away the area in the middle goes away as well. Two parts which when they come together create a third.

originally posted by: Joecroft

Yeah, but is it really a third unique distinct part…because it only consists of the other two parts coming together…So in effect only two parts exist together as one. The third is an illusion or is conceptualised within other literature.

It’s really just a 2way unity that’s taking place. And when we think of it in terms of the Spirit and the Soul existing together as one, then there is no third element.

For example, imagine we have three distinct elements and we mix them together as One…then that would produce a true “Tri Unity” in action…i.e. 3 elements actually existing together as one.

But in the example of the ven diagram… in reality, only 2 forces or elements are existing together. There’s no “Tri Unity” taking place…but only a “BI Unity”…IMO
...
The problem for me though is that there is a lot of symbolism around the feminine (e.g. Mother, Bride, Virgin birth etc) which in my opinion is largely metaphorical for the birth of the Son in the Spirit.
...
And remember the Son within you has always been there. But when one is said to receive the Holy Spirit, The Son within us gets awakened to it’s Sonship i.e. it’s oneness with the Father. Now you could argue this has created a New Son (a third element) but too me it’s the same Son but just with a new perspective.

This Son which was always there existing anyway, becomes aware of itself spiritually. It’s termed a New birth in the Spirit, or in other words the Son has gained realization of himself/herself. It’s the same Son but with a new realization of itself, hence the term New Birth.

The Holy Spirit is said to have given birth to this new Son or realization. This is why the Holy Spirit has been feminised in other literal writings and accounts, because she symbolically gives birth to the Son; but it’s all symbolism and metaphor IMO…

Notice the lack of bible quotations or bible references in this type of commentary.

Teachings of men. Philosophies of men. Speculations of men. There is no end to them.

a reply to: Joecroft

The third one is the manifestion of the first two coming together is not an illusion.
I'll try to explain very simply:
I am one individual, made of two other individuals. They came together and the resulting manifestion of that is me.
We are body, soul and spirit. Our body is the physical manifestation of the soul and spirit.

In the case of God He is One and two and three at the same time. He is the unity.
That is why Jesus said that whoever has seen him has seen the father. ( In my case is the same, whoever has seen me has seen my father because I am a manifestation of him). The mother (the feminine) is not mention because there is mistery in there, the element of manifestation. The veil of Isis that needs to be lifted up to know the true.

a reply to: Joecroft

TextSo my question to Christians is this… What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

My understanding of course -----

Spirit
The name “Holy Spirit” defines God. There are many spirits but when used as Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit that definition means that the subject is God or by God.

Note that Genesis 1:2 states that the Spirit of God hovered over the waters. Why the Spirit of God. Why not simply God?
Because God is not an entity as most all understand. If God were an entity then He would be limited to be in one place at a time and perform one thing at a time. But He is neither limited nor is He as most all imagine. God is the master energy of all existence of which we have no idea what that is. Some of God’s energy is understood as His Spirits. Yes both good and evil.

Most all try to understand Spirit in confining Spirit as a Christian thing from the NT. It is not as most realize. Spirit is used 238 times and in 218 verses of the OT alone and from Genesis to Malachi.. Let me give you an example of what I am talking about---

1st Samuel_16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took the harp, and played with his hand; so Saul found relief, and it was well with him, and the evil spirit departed from him.

It plainly states that the evil spirit was from God as it either entered or fell upon King Saul. This spirit is not the spirit of life that is King Saul but the spirit of which God sent to control the spirit of life which was King Saul.

Spirit is not as most all of us understand it. Each living animate organism has a spirit of which God assigned as a spirit of life. Some are of one nature while others of another nature. Nevertheless each one has a spirit of life. There are spirits of inanimate creations which also have spirits of life. The very waters and earth are of that example. The curse of the fig tree is a prime example of the fig tree not obeying the Creator. By so doing it perished by losing its life.

Spirit as found in OT -- 218 verses found, 238 matches
Genesis 7 verses found 7 matches
Exodus 5 verses found 5 matches
Leviticus 1 verse found 1 match
Numbers 9 verses found 11 matches
Deuteronomy 3 verses found 3 matches
Joshua 2 verses found 2 matches
Judges 9 verses found 9 matches
1 Samuel 16 verses found 18 matches
2 Samuel 1 verse found 1 match
1 Kings 7 verses found 7 matches
2 Kings 6 verses found 6 matches
1 Chronicles 3 verses found 4 matches
2 Chronicles 11 verses found 11 matches
Ezra 2 verses found 2 matches
Nehemiah 2 verses found 2 matches
Job 13 verses found 13 matches
Psalms 18 verses found 18 matches
Proverbs 16 verses found 17 matches
Ecclesiastes 5 verses found 7 matches
Isaiah 29 verses found 34 matches
Jeremiah 2 verses found 2 matches
Ezekiel 22 verses found 26 matches
Daniel 11 verses found 11 matches
Hosea 3 verses found 3 matches
Joel 2 verses found 2 matches
Micah 2 verses found 2 matches
Habakkuk 1 verse found 1 match
Haggai 2 verses found 4 matches
Zechariah 6 verses found 6 matches
Malachi 2 verses found 3 matches

As you examine these scriptures you will then understand that the New Testament is simply continuing the Old Testament understanding of Spirit. When the NT teaches that God has a Holy Spirit, it is telling you that this Holy Spirit is a Spirit sent to the believers of the doctrine of Jesus. It is sent by the Christ to fall upon those who accept Him as the Only Begotten Son of God. When one denies this Holy Spirit, that one who denies this Spirit of God denies both God and His Begotten Son. The reasoning of being called Holy Spirit is the same as why it is called evil spirit in King Saul's verse. It simply distinguishes the spirit of good and evil. No one can understand a portion of God or what He consists of. Our understanding is to say that He is spirit and is many spirits. What that is I have no idea.

This Holy Spirit is one of those Spirits of which Moses wrote in Genesis 1:2 -------------

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. --- Naturally this was His Holy Spirit or one of His holy Spirits or a portion of Himself.

Nevertheless of how you want to understand this, you must realize that it is not simply a Christian Trinity thing that so many parrot. It is a far more complicated existence then what Moses or any of us understand and will remain so as far as in my opinion.

originally posted by: Joecroft
So my question to Christians is this…

What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

And if you don't know what the mystery is…i.e. God hasn’t revealed it to you yet…

Then why do you believe/accept it, when you don’t know the mystery behind it…?


I look forward to hearing people’s responses…

There is no mystery. All truth had been given. To say otherwise is denying Jesus last words before he departed.

God repeatedly call to worship HIM alone. He is the Father because He is the creator.

He is not made of flesh, therefore He is the Holy Spirit.

God is the most supreme entity. Nothing equal to HIM. Therefore, He neither procreates nor require a spouse. He is the beginning and everlasting. He does not need a wife or sons and daughters. We are HIS love. Every single one of us. There is no conditional love. There is no limit. There is no favoritism. To think otherwise is denying God unlimited love.. How can a father favor one son over the other? There is no such things as firstborn. We are all equal in god's eyes. This is the teaching of ALL prophets from Abraham to Jesus. Even Gabriel teach Muhammad to recite that God love everyone equally.

Matthew 5:43-48
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

There is no mystery and there is no trinity.

There is only one worthy god to be your father.

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Originally posted by Raggedyman
Was Jesus talking to you directly, to me directly?
Was Jesus addressing the apostles directly?

If someone was addressing a crowd of people with an important message…the message doesn’t just apply to those listening at the time…it applies to anyone hearing it or reading it afterwards.

Jesus was speaking a universal truth about the Holy Spirit…that truth applies to everyone, not just the disciples hearing it at that time.

Originally posted by Raggedyman
The apostles could heal, can you?

Positive intention from the heart can have a healing effect on others…IMO

Also according to the Bible, believers can receive the gift of healing, so it doesn’t just apply to the disciples alone.

Originally posted by Raggedyman
There are many differences and nuances in language between English and Greek, do you claim to know them all?

Knowing the Greek and Hebrew translations of the Bible, is the key to understanding it better.

Over the years I’ve looked at and cross referenced many passages in the New and Old Testament with the Greek and Hebrew languages…I don’t think anyone would claim to know them all, but I've looked at quite a few.

Originally posted by Raggedyman
The Trinity is a revealed truth, simple

Well, if it’s a revealed truth then perhaps you could stick to the questions in my OP, rather than asking me all these other questions.


Ps – Your link doesn’t work…


- JC

a reply to: BlueJacket

Originally posted by Abednego
I would say youre to focused on the exoteric...your thinking imo is on target...but define the Hebrew letters, of the name of God in order...and you may come close to understanding the "in the beginnining" verses of Genesis. Think..fire, out of water, air/earth, water

What do you mean by “define the Hebrew letters”…haven’t they already been defined lol


Personally I think the Tetragrammaton and the Ogdoad are similar, if not the same concept; In that they speak of creation from the beginning and its elements…In the Ogdoad the elements were anthropomorphised into male and female.

The Ogdoads 8 deities consisted of 4 males, who each had a feminine counter part. Together each male and his consort, made up 4 powers/sources/elements, from which everything was created. The 4 being Water, Eternity, Darkness and Air.

Not sure which piece of the Jigsaw you think I’m missing…

- JC

a reply to: whereislogic

Originally posted by whereislogic
Who is the "you" in that verse addressing? Is it just "any man"? And what else does the account mention about what type of truth it's talking about?

I’ll say to you exactly what I said to Raggedyman.

If someone was addressing a crowd of people with an important message…the message doesn’t just apply to those listening at the time…it applies to anyone hearing it or reading it afterwards.

Jesus was speaking a universal truth about the Holy Spirit…that truth applies to everyone, not just the disciples hearing it at that time.


I see you’re a Jehovah's Witness…if memory serves…you guys don’t accept the Trinity…

I’m curious though…how do you Jw's get around this verse below…




I assume you believe Jesus is Gods redeemer…Yet in Isaiah 44-6…Gods redeemer is given the same Name as God himself i.e. Jehovah…?


Over to you…


- JC

a reply to: Abednego

Originally posted by Abednego
The third one is the manifestion of the first two coming together is not an illusion.
I'll try to explain very simply:
I am one individual, made of two other individuals. They came together and the resulting manifestion of that is me.
We are body, soul and spirit. Our body is the physical manifestation of the soul and spirit.

Who are these 2 other individuals you speak of…?

You seem to think that there is the Father…some other entity (presumable the Body) and then You…lol

No no no…One of those 2 entities/experiences is You…your Soul…

Your body is not an individual…YOU are the individual and Your Soul is the real You…

The Father and the Son work in harmony together within every individual.

Granted, the realisation is not an illusion (It’s Very Real), but the idea that there is now a unique third entity/person existing after realisation…is an illusion.

There is no third one…the third one lol is really the second one lol coming to realisation.

In other words, the Son still exists as he did before; but only now with new found realisation…but he’s still the same being/experience, because he was always one with God to begin with…prior to realisation…

A change in character does not mean a change in substance…The Son is still the Son but only with a new found Character.

What became true after, was always true beforehand…

Originally posted by Abednego
In the case of God He is One and two and three at the same time. He is the unity.
That is why Jesus said that whoever has seen him has seen the father. ( In my case is the same, whoever has seen me has seen my father because I am a manifestation of him).
…
…

The word “see” in that verse you’re talking about above is more accurately translated as know, perceive and understand. Jesus meant they had come to know the Father, not literally see him. No man can see God and live.

They had come to know the Father speaking through Jesus, and they also came to know the Son. This is why Jesus said trust in God and trust also in me!
It’s also why Jesus said…Is it not written in your Law that the testimony of 2 witnesses is true…I testify for myself!!! My other witness is the Father who sent me.

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

There are esoteric, as well as exoteric definitions...Im fairly sure you get that, however your response is wildly off what I was offering.

yod he ...he is what I refered to as the name of God. using that information, the practice of distilling the real trinity not the silly grade school version purported by certain exoteric religious control systems, brings a depth of understanding that answers your OP.

I shouldnt of engaged the conversation frankly, but I did. Nothing I said is lol worthy to anyone thats put forth even minimal hermetic effort.

a reply to: Joecroft

It is possible that the Light/YWHW/Christ is our God and has full authority over all creation yet still has a father.

All things were created by him, for him and through him. I am the first and the last, the firstborn.

His father would not be the first or the last or the firstborn. For the father was before even this creation which has been made through his son, our God. The father has no beggining and no ending. The father was never the firstborn, the father does not equate his existence to time, for time has no hold on the Father.

Jesus does clarify and say he always does what his father tells him. In this way we know that the father is aware of his son and his son's creation. We can also know the father laid out the pattern that his Son would follow. In the Son's obedience he is one with his father.

God the father is love a condition which does not tempt, nor can it be tempted to anything but love. Love is timeless, never begging and never ending.

His son, our God is the Holy Spirit. The creator of everything we are a part of and he is also a part of each of us.

According to the Atheist all but the psychopath understands morality and has a voice of morality within him.

According to Christ he is the voice of reason, the morality that guides us. Accepting that the voice of Love and reason is from God is the first step to acknowledging the path and walking in the Light.

There is no other Elohim/God/Creator of the Israelites or humanity. But our Elohim/YWHW/Jesus has a father. A concept not made clear in the OT but proven through the word's of Christ Jesus.