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originally posted by: BenutzerUnbekannt
originally posted by: james1947
a reply to: BiffJordan
Sure, how about the Betty Hill case...
Interesting, I just said the opposite. It's just a story made up by a mentally fragile couple.
I forgot about the star map, but it's not evidence in any way shape or form; the 2d data was plucked out of Betty's subconscious but there's no way to prove it was placed there via an alien abduction. Chances are it was sheer coincidence.
originally posted by: BenutzerUnbekannt
a reply to: james1947
Putting the so-called "star map" aside, the rest of the Hill's story is just that, a story. Who knows why they decided to come up with the whole abduction hoax. People do and say very odd things, and I guess the Hills had wild imaginations and a penchant for telling lies. We can't say why they did it, but it's almost certain they fabricated the whole story.
As for the star map, interesting numbers you present there. Assuming the Hills made this whole episode up, maybe they also fabricated the star map aspect too. Don't ask me how they did it, as I don't know. Is this more likely than an actual alien abduction? Yes it is.
The bottom line is astronomical coincidences are still more likely than alien abductions.
Just on how Betty's 2d rendition was then translated into 3d space, I gather there was rather a lot of approximation involved, ie it wasn't a perfect match - in fact, a less generous star-map maker would've just put Betty's diagram in the trash and given up. My point? Well M.Fish was clearly desperate to make the dots fit and when there's a will there's a way.
originally posted by: wylekat
a reply to: one4all
One might find the experience worth giggeling at if you thought it was a dream.
It was a pretty solid experience, both of us witnessed the thing, her dog didn't even care- he had found a tasty spot on the road to lick. Reason I asked was- I had read through abduction experiences, and ours was extremely unusual, especially in that regard. Missing time? Didn't care. Taken aboard? I was making jokes about probably being thrown back off after doing Shatner impressions in the pilot's chair. Not to mention the alien, who turned on the interior lights so we could have a good look.
Seven different groups three of which were humans very much like us.None looked like your picture....it looks like a Paracas skull.
Seems the alien itself doesn't match up to 'known' groups, either. I'd guessed it was in the realm of the weirder ETs, like with the Flatwoods Monster. Also of interest- my wife's eyesight is.. meh. To her to have described this being in the detail I was getting, and well- her 'artistic' imagination is almost non existent as well- so making up something like this is well out of the realm of possibility, as well- PLUS her reaction- "Oh, look. An alien."- she may as well have been describing the weather- it's one of the reasons why I'm fuzzy as to what happened abductionwise, because such sharp, exacting details do escape her attention. Not to mention the ship was 20ish feet up, and away from us. I got a glorious view of the bottom, some of the side, and I could see the wraparound windshield, and some lights inside, but not really an alien, per se. Plus, the exterior lights were giving off (no, I'm not kidding) classic, stereotypical, straight from photoshop and J. J. Abrams lens flares. I even took off my glasses, thinking it was some weird effect- and there they still were. So, seeing pointy head there wasn't happening for me.
Plus, like I said, I was acting like a damn fool as well.
It is SOP with some group that you do not retain memories of your abduction event.....this process clearly doesn't work on all of us.
Or, in some people's cases- I think that whatever they do, you either build up an immunity to it, or they manage to break whatever portion of the brain that they abuse. Then, like a mental sunburn, one ends up sensitive, whether they want to be or not.
originally posted by: The Shrike
originally posted by: BiffJordan
snip
For me I've always been so enamored with Travis Walton, I love "Fire in the Sky" so much that I want to believe in it. In my Walton research over the years I've found that more or less I believe him. But again I have an emotional attachment to the story and I admit I do want it to be true, so that clouds my judgement. What about you? Is there an abduction story that is un-debunkable?
I don't accept claims of alien abductions and at the top of my list is Travis Walton, he rankles me. Closely followed by the Hills whose own psychiatrist said he didn't believe the abduction claim.
Here are some reliable sources which might help you see Travis Walton in a different light. Read with an open mind.
Travis Walton’s Alien Abduction Lie Detection Test
Michael Shermer
michaelshermer.com...
"Profitable Nightmare of a Very Unreal Kind"
by Jeff Wells (from The Age, Melbourne, Australia, 6 January 1979)
debunker.com...
Monday, February 13, 2012
Travis Walton vs. Philip J. Klass
badufos.blogspot.com...
Larry King Live – Walton UFO abduction case (3/12/1993)
Wednesday, December 23, 2015
Dr. Simon Reveals his Real Thoughts on the Hill "UFO Abduction" Case
badufos.blogspot.com...
originally posted by: Jay-morris
So what is your take on it? Do you think all the workers lied. Do you think they all lied to get out of the logging contract?
originally posted by: The Shrike
originally posted by: Jay-morris
So what is your take on it? Do you think all the workers lied. Do you think they all lied to get out of the logging contract?
My reply came from me, primarily, as one who doesn't accept claims without irrefutable proof. Since Walton's alleged abduction took place in November, 1975, I probably became aware of it in 1976 but cannot recall when I actually did. I read everything about it that was reported. I read pro and con articles and books.
To cut to the chase, because of a lack of any pro-evidence I'd rather accept the explanation given in
Fire in the Sky: A Real UFO Abduction?
The evidence shows that Travis Walton's famous story of having been abducted by aliens probably never happened.
skeptoid.com...
originally posted by: BenutzerUnbekannt
a reply to: james1947
Sorry James - and I respect your experience and your training - but there's still absolutely nothing to the Hill case. It's like a meringue in that it just crumbles to dust when inspected by a rational mind.
Essentially we have a wild claim made by an odd couple and the only evidence is their [notoriously unreliable and fickle] hypnotic regression sessions. That's it. Nothing. Zilcho.
To get back to the OP, and in light of what we've both exchanged on this thread, I can now say with certainty that there's no such thing as an abduction case that cannot be debunked.
originally posted by: wylekat
a reply to: BiffJordan
A hint: If they're actively making money and notoriety off of it- it stinks, most likely.
originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: james1947
One glaring problem with Betty's map is it was a recollection of something and not the actual map. Let's say you spend five minutes staring at a map of somewhere? Now I'll ask you to draw the map several days later. To be doubly sure, I'll get a hypnotist to regress you too and then we'll have two maps OK?
With Betty's map, there is absolutely no way to check if her recollection was accurate. Nobody hypnotised her twice to compare the two either and they should have done.
Hear me out here as I'm not against the Hill's narrative (or character) and not a debunker. There's no way of knowing if Betty had a lucid dream about a map or even if the potential intruders showed her a real map of real places. There's a lot of evidence that hypnotists can affect recollections, but there wasn't a great body of evidence back when Simon was working. Don't get me wrong here, that man was a bloody good psychiatrist and his interview technique was neutral and didn't lead either Betty or Barney (I've heard the tapes). The point I'm making is 'the map' never was great evidence for the reasons I mentioned and others I haven't.
originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: james1947
One glaring problem with Betty's map is it was a recollection of something and not the actual map. Let's say you spend five minutes staring at a map of somewhere? Now I'll ask you to draw the map several days later. To be doubly sure, I'll get a hypnotist to regress you too and then we'll have two maps OK?
Do you think the two recollected maps will be exact copies of the original? We can compare the original to your recollected maps and see how accurate they are.
With Betty's map, there is absolutely no way to check if her recollection was accurate. Nobody hypnotised her twice to compare the two either and they should have done.
Hear me out here as I'm not against the Hill's narrative (or character) and not a debunker. There's no way of knowing if Betty had a lucid dream about a map or even if the potential intruders showed her a real map of real places. There's a lot of evidence that hypnotists can affect recollections, but there wasn't a great body of evidence back when Simon was working. Don't get me wrong here, that man was a bloody good psychiatrist and his interview technique was neutral and didn't lead either Betty or Barney (I've heard the tapes). The point I'm making is 'the map' never was great evidence for the reasons I mentioned and others I haven't.
originally posted by: The Shrike
The star map has been more than adequately explained.
Research for crying out loud!
originally posted by: BiffJordan
Based on the years I've dabbled in this topic I have never seen any proof of anything. I've read plenty of forum members personal accounts, plenty of "official looking government documents", I've seen more than enough scary creepy amateur internet videos of testimony or "footage" of UFO's... and nothing has ever been good enough to sell me on any believable truth. There is always a more than likely terrestrial explanation for every scenario I have ever come across. I'd say more often than not out of nothing but pure boredom I've badly WANTED to believe to justify my interest in the topic, but I've never been convinced. What would convince me? I've never seen anything that couldn't be manufactured in a way to provide the desired effect of "they're here".
I mean no offense to anyone who "claims to be abducted" but the likely hood that they were chosen by intergalactic beings traveling millions of light years away simply to use your DNA to further their species because reproductive capabilities have become null for them... I mean come on, how can you believe that? It is much more likely that "abductees", 1st are bored attention seeking compulsive liars, 2nd looking for a way to make money or 3rd are mentally ill or have some kind of personality disorder. Truthfully if the Travis Walton case is the most "credible" of the bunch then we are all just talking about modern folklore, no different than Vampire's and Werewolves. Are they fun to fantasize about? Sure, is there anything "real" about a person who is bitten by a wolf and physically turns into another creature? No. Have you ever herd of the case where a person was bit on the neck while sleeping on vacation in Europe and ended up living for hundreds of years until a bounty hunter impaled a wooden steak through their heart? No.
Even going back to the classics. The paintings of yesteryear that can be interpreted to feature "UFO's" in the sky. They don't take into account religious explanation for their actual meaning. What happened to the Mayans? Did they get sucked into a portal and deported to another universe? Some kind of star gate? No, it was the Spanish who raped and pillaged them into what we call Mexicans. The answer that UFOlogists want to jump to is always Aliens, and it's always wrong. I have proof of that, and my proof is the cold hard history of there never ever being and kind of legit proof of intelligent life beyond Earth. Suspicions? Yes. Fictions? Yes. Truths and facts, no never.
Year after year another story comes, someone creates a buzz worthy scenario that gets the esoteric portion of the internet all giddy and excited but time after time that person is found out and crushed with the truth.
Truly I didn't expect anyone to even make much of this thread, I appreciate those who put their input out there. But in the end there is no un-debunkable alien abduction story because there is nobody beyond criminals who abduct people. I'm a big time Science fan, and an even bigger Science Fiction fan. In my logical mind I think there has to be intelligent life out there just because why would our race be the only one in an ever expanding infinite undiscovered universe? What would be undebunkable evidence to me? I'd have to see it to believe it. Or that day where NASA holds a press conference and delivers unmistakable footage that blows my mind. The day where I look out my window and see "them hovering over NYC"... but even if some of the abductions are real as depicted, it's still more likely to be a government operation than intergalactic beings who traveled millions of light years for YOUR DNA.
The pro-abduction is favored by young people who don't do in-depth research into the material available on the Web. Nobody wants to accept that Betty, in particular, was an active UFOlogist attending & possibly holding UFO meetings in their home.