US education system, Job market scam - ever moving goal line & requirements for same or less pay

a reply to: toysforadults

In my jobs I see all of the above, so to say. Not just one discipline but several disciplines.

In reply to Waggz post, from my experience most IT jobs theses days are much less than permanent usually lasting about 4 years or maybe a little longer until the problem being worked on is resolved. Then its out the door to find another job.

Why keep employees around when there are already IT staff to handle maintenance.

a reply to: eManym

I have left every single job I have ever had in IT on my own will. After finding a job that I liked better with better work and more pay.

I haven't experienced any of these 4 year only jobs you speak of. I work for one of the largest companies in the world and the only problem we have is keeping people. I also have a large network of IT friends and acquaintances and have never heard them speak of these 4 year only jobs.

If your good at what you do then you choose your path.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

#1 rule in the workforce, it's all who you know not what you know.

You've said it yourself but you still don't want to use it to your advantage.
The people using the professors help were doing the smart thing. That is part of what going to college is about,
getting connections.

Regardless of your tech prowess, it is also important to have people skills, if not more important.

a reply to: eManym

I think network engineering is a different best I see a lot of opportunity once I finish the second half of the CCNA in two months I'm jumping right into BGP and security while looking for a job

a reply to: toysforadults

Well, good luck to you.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Requirements for jobs get more competitive over time. The barrier to entry for work goes down over time, which in turn allows companies to ask for more qualifications to get a job.

In addition, there's the expectation that you're professionally and academically improving over time as well. If you have a position asking for 10 years of experience, then it makes sense that you're also asking for significantly more education and accomplishments than someone with 1 year of experience as well. Repeating that first year 10 times is not 10 years of progressive experience. It's 1 year.

a reply to: trollz

If you're unqualified, that's your fault. While instructors are supposed to teach, university is not meant to be a system to obtain job skills. It's for networking and liberal arts concepts. The idea of employable skills from university is relatively new (and a failure).

That said... if the instructor didn't teach sufficiently, why didn't you take it upon yourself to learn?

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: trollz

this is why I chose WGU's Networking and Security degree, it checks off the degree box on the applications and I have to complete the CCNA R&S and CCNA Security in order to finish the degree which will get my foot in the door.

I did about a years worth of research and acquired a few certifications prior to choosing a degree program

Just did a couple more interviews this week. In the grand scheme of things, I haven't done many, but I've done enough at this point that I can figure out just from a resume who and who won't be getting a second interview. Not a single person with less than a double Bachelors degree has even scored a 50% or ebtter on our companies technical test yet, out of about 25 people.

originally posted by: JAGStorm
#1 rule in the workforce, it's all who you know not what you know.

I don't believe this for an instant. I've been traveling this week. I work for a fortune 500 company. Gave a 20 minute presentation to our CEO, and he wrote our team (3 people) a check for millions of dollars in additional funding on the spot. Then took us out to dinner for a Q&A session.

That was 100% due to what we knew and the applications of our technology that we could promise.

If you know what you're doing, the people you need to meet will seek you out.

Becomes a science teacher...... there is no such thing as a unemployed science teacher.

And standard's are low.......even I managed to become one

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: trollz

If you're unqualified, that's your fault. While instructors are supposed to teach, university is not meant to be a system to obtain job skills. It's for networking and liberal arts concepts. The idea of employable skills from university is relatively new (and a failure).

That said... if the instructor didn't teach sufficiently, why didn't you take it upon yourself to learn?

Total BS. You go to college to learn and become employable in a particular field. If a college says that they're teaching something and preparing students to become employable in a certain field, then it's their responsibility to actually teach what they're claiming they're going to, not hire professors who just walk in and browse the internet all class. I did everything that was required of me to pass my courses with good grades. As a matter of fact, the ONLY THING I had to do in one of my classes was read a book. No quizzes, no tests, no final, no professor - read this book. That's called a scam. It's NOT my fault that my college didn't provide the education they claimed they would.
Let's say you wanted to become a veterinarian, and I claim I can teach you all the skills you need to become one - for $40,000. So you think, ok, great, you'll pay me, I'll teach you, and then you'll become a veterinarian and pay off the debt. Except when you pay me the $40,000, all I do is hand you some $40 books, tell you to figure it out yourself, and sit back reading the news. Would me not teaching you be your fault?
There's a reason people pay to go to college - because they expect to be taught by instructors who have knowledge in the fields they're teaching about.

originally posted by: trollz
There's a reason people pay to go to college - because they expect to be taught by instructors who have knowledge in the fields they're teaching about.

Knowing what books to read is still guided learning. That aside, university isn't about class time, that's just something you do in addition to everything else. The real opportunity to learn is in attending all office hours and getting specific questions. If all you did was attend class, you wasted your time.

I find it astonishing that some students attend a good college or university, party constantly, barely make a 2.0, then blame the university for not teaching them anything.

a reply to: Aazadan

Not a single person with less than a double Bachelors degree

don't think we are sharing the same reality

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

DigginFoTroof; just want to say that my response below has nothing to do with you personally; I don't know you and there not enough here to form a real understanding of a person.

You are conpleatily correct that Universites are out to make money off their consumers... just like any other business mind you ... the difference is society has put this industry on a pedestal and we have fooled ourselves into thinking they have our best interest at heart ... not only do they not, they have come to a point of taking advantage of our opinion of them. Now it's not all sinister I'm sure; many in the industry probably have good intentions when they take action that ultimately harm society... but I suspect the guys at the top of their perimid (banks giving out student loans) know exactly what they are doing.

But this is not entirely there fault. Do we always believe the mechanic when he tells us how desperately we need some other work done when all we came in for was a state inspection? No we judge his recommendations based on our own automotive knowledge and are history with the mechanic.

Why aren't we quick to do the same thing with university? ... and since most people dont have a history with a university it makes increasing their knowledge about university and job prospects all that more important befor spending thousands to 100s of thousands buying their products.

For example I really have little sympathy for a guy who gets an undergraduate degree in business and complains that he cant find a good job with it. He should have know that before he bought his degree. In your case IT isn't the same as a business degree, as it does require hard skills, but it should have come at no surprise that it's a highly competitive job market. In the 80s, 90s and 00s everyone and their mother became an IT professional; it shouldn't be a surprise that with such a large work force to choose from that companies expect ever increasing skills and are less and less willing to pay for them. It's also not a surprise that so many talentless people have fallen into jobs and dont really work at them. Management isn't always right when they higher people and its not always easy to get rid of them once hired.

But there is also something else in your OP that got me thinking. And again I sincerely do not intend to be judging you here, your OP is to short to know a person so I admit I could be very wrong right from the start.

You seem to be segregating your self from others in your OP based on your opinion of what should be a companies desired skills when hiring and retraining an employee. You put your self in the "tech nerd" category and others, who you perceive as having better job prospects, as being less tech savvy but perhaps better networkers or a nicer appernce.

What you might have to realize is that these softer skills that you are dismissing, as well as many other considerations, are all important (to various degrees) along with the hard skill (being tech savvy) depending on the position being filled.

Since as I said I do not know you enough to judge so let me tell you about myself. I am an Electrical/Systems Engineer with a BS in the field, I'm in my late 30s have been in the field for 19 years. I also have a Master's Degree in business and another degree that is irrelevant. A colleague of mine is relatively the same age (I'm a few years his senior) he has been in the industry just as long and has a BS and recently got his MS in System Engineering. I would freely admit he's a better overall Engineer than I am. He's your uber Engineer who pulls out his slide rule all the time and is anal about everything being perfect. I on the other hand am the type of person who chooses to get a job done faster at the expense of perfect; not wrong just not perfect. My career has been more successful than his; I make more money and he reports to me. He could easily say that its unfair that I have been elevated above him dispite him being more tech savvy than myself. Buy if he did he would be neglectful of the things that I am better at then he is and that at this point in his career he needs to start focusing on those things if he wants to be promoted or seen as a valuable member of the company. These are the soft skills you are dismissing.

originally posted by: eManym
I have about 10 years experience in IT and a Masters with good grades. This involved experience in software programming, network administration, system administration, systems analysis, etc.

Many people I have worked under have less education than I have. Most are friends, relatives of higher management or high achievers that learned how to work the system in their favor. Companies no longer look at college or university degrees as being of any value.

Currently from the standpoint of IT, companies are seeking the best quality for the cheapest price. Most determine that an employee with a degree and experience will not stay with the company because the employee will move on to some other company that makes a better offer.

Someone with a Masters and experience in IT will be lucky to land a job for 45k per year in the private sector, which in my opinion is a pittance when the amount of responsibility involved with the job is taken into account.

The government sector pays twice that but they use the same hiring practices as the private sector.

3 months ago I had a job as a restaurant manager in a casino, pays still at $32,800.00/yr~I hold no degree but tons of experience in supervisory and leadership... 45k for a position for Bach degree .. so sad.

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Aazadan

Not a single person with less than a double Bachelors degree

.

don't think we are sharing the same reality

Why not? A single Bachelors degree doesn't teach much. Remember, the typical undergrad program is essentially nothing more than a survey of sub disciplines in any particular field. The material in that subdiscipline also happens to be a brief overview. I know it doesn't feel like it to people while taking the classes, but undergrad material only scratches the surface of everything... believe it or not, professors have massive struggles in prioritizing what they teach, because there's so much subject matter and so little time.

It's not until people have explored multiple subjects and spent a couple extra years practicing, that they might even begin to develop the proper depth to be useful.

That has been my experience at least.

originally posted by: Komodo
3 months ago I had a job as a restaurant manager in a casino, pays still at $32,800.00/yr~I hold no degree but tons of experience in supervisory and leadership... 45k for a position for Bach degree .. so sad.

My first job hired directly while still in university started at $100k in a low col area. And the real crime is that I suck at what I do... if I were my boss, I would fire me for incompetence. People with actual talent get hired for a lot more.