This is the deceitful news im tired of.

a reply to: face23785

How so?

a reply to: Ahabstar

So ... Progressivism in your mind is a government providing funds for the poor etc. Merely to increase the tax base?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: face23785

How so?

Should I copy and paste the OP or do you just wanna click back to page one and read it?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Power and control over the population. Money is just but one way. And by no means is Progressivism limited to a Left Spectrum. Conservatives embrace it as well, typically in shorter attachments in tough times or as bargaining chip for concessions.

Like I said, it is an authoritarian form of capitalism. The Soviet Union’s flirt with perestroika before collapse was done under progressive tenets Neoconservatives also similarly use progressive thought.

a reply to: face23785

Not really. You found it necessary to make an inane statement to me, so out of courtesy I wanted to give you a chance to make some sense.

The quote I provided from Hitler himself puts the lie to the incessant claims that the Nazis were Marxist (which the Nazis associated with Jews) or were Left.

There's not a more accurate library book than Hitler's own words.

a reply to: Ahabstar

So "progressive" to you means authoritarian capitalism?

That's beginning to sound like the common definition of a mixed economy.

To me progressivism is just right of pure revolutionary thought ... because progressives never stop growing government to do more for citizens. (whereas the right/neocons grows government to support the war machine.)

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: face23785

Not really. You found it necessary to make an inane statement to me, so out of courtesy I wanted to give you a chance to make some sense.

The quote I provided from Hitler himself puts the lie to the incessant claims that the Nazis were Marxist (which the Nazis associated with Jews) or were Left.

There's not a more accurate library book than Hitler's own words.

It does no such thing. You proposed "a simple distinction" between right and left:

originally posted by: Gryphon66
I propose a simple distinction:

Right wing means you want to control what other people do.

Left wing means you live and let live.

But was that the view Hitler held? You're fond of noting how in the strictest original terms, the American Democrat Party is actually a center-right party. That's true, from a global and historical perspective, but in the United States they're a left party and the Republicans are the right party. When people are talking about their local politics, it's all relative. When someone in the US calls the Democrat Party "the left", does that prove that they're on the left of your scale? Or are they still a center-right party, by your definition?

So when Hitler says

And that party is either the Left: and then God help us! for it will lead us to complete destruction - to Bolshevism, or else it is a party of the Right

surely you're aware that he's speaking in relative terms. He's not speaking in your terms of left/right, he's speaking in local and contemporary terms that people listening to or reading his words will understand. At that time, there was a Communist Party in Germany. In that context, a "party of the Right" doesn't necessarily mean a far-right party as we'd define it today, it merely means to the right of Communism. Socialism is to the right of Communism. His form of socialism, National Socialism, may not be "true socialism" to you, but that's what every fan of socialism says after it inevitably gets corrupted by human nature, as the German Workers Party did and every attempt at socialism ever has.

The quote from Hitler you posted in no way puts to rest where the Nazis were on the political spectrum, nor is the quote at odds with the OP.

a reply to: face23785

My first comment has nothing to do with the Hitler quote (and that should be obvious). It was my own musing which I can easily defend ... I'm fairly sure you're aware of that though and just wanted to add bulk to your post.

Your individual interpretations of where the Nazis stood vis a vis political terminology of his time and ours are simply your own opinions. You aren't an authority on political science ... and apparently are unable to use basic terms in a standard way.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Well even Socialist countries have to revert to some Progressive principles in order to conduct trade with Capitalist countries. Otherwise trade has to be locked down to an office of import/export. Free trade doesn’t work between collectives and individuals very well otherwise.

So all those socialist utopias in Europe, are actually more or less Progressive countries. While Venezuela went the government office route as a buffer and well, you see how that turned out when the only valued export prices tanked. But I still love the stories of how school teachers make $85k a year and gloss over that really it is about $25k after taxes.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: face23785

My first comment has nothing to do with the Hitler quote (and that should be obvious). It was my own musing which I can easily defend ... I'm fairly sure you're aware of that though and just wanted to add bulk to your post.

Your individual interpretations of where the Nazis stood vis a vis political terminology of his time and ours are simply your own opinions. You aren't an authority on political science ... and apparently are unable to use basic terms in a standard way.

In a nut shell Nazi Socialist RIGHT, Germany communist LEFT... That's what it was back in the good ole days

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: face23785

My first comment has nothing to do with the Hitler quote (and that should be obvious). It was my own musing which I can easily defend ... I'm fairly sure you're aware of that though and just wanted to add bulk to your post.

I don't have to try to add bulk to my posts. I tend to be long-winded, a lot of my posts look bulky. I never learned brevity.

That's a cute way to weasel out of actually having to respond to anything in my post though. Props.

Your individual interpretations of where the Nazis stood vis a vis political terminology of his time and ours are simply your own opinions.

I submit that it's a pretty well-established fact that when people talk about what's left and right, they're speaking in relative terms from their own frame of reference. Rarely are people talking about it in textbook terms or in your preferred terms. In the case of the Hitler quote, would you agree that he's speaking from his own frame of reference, or is that just my opinion? Do you have any way to know for sure or is that likewise just your opinion? It seems likely to me he's giving his views rather than sticking to textbook definitions, but I'll admit I could be wrong. Hitler could have been quite the stickler for hard facts, unbeknownst to me.

You aren't an authority on political science ... and apparently are unable to use basic terms in a standard way.

Again, we're not talking about textbook definitions of terms here.

Would you care to start over and formulate a real response to my last post or are you gonna stick with this cop out?

originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: Gryphon66

Well even Socialist countries have to revert to some Progressive principles in order to conduct trade with Capitalist countries. Otherwise trade has to be locked down to an office of import/export. Free trade doesn’t work between collectives and individuals very well otherwise.

So all those socialist utopias in Europe, are actually more or less Progressive countries. While Venezuela went the government office route as a buffer and well, you see how that turned out when the only valued export prices tanked. But I still love the stories of how school teachers make $85k a year and gloss over that really it is about $25k after taxes.

That's just crazy, after work at the end of the year it probably just makes a lot of people quit to just get those food stamps and housing allowance or assistance or whatever its called so they dont have to worry about all there hard work being sucked out from under them and taken away only to be denied any helpful services because they make too much before taxes... But, dang, I heard that was the best life to have though...

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: xBWOMPx

Why are you stuck on this "go to the library" meme?

Your guarantee isn't worth the electrons it took to send it to the screen. Your position is just plain old ignorant.

These are Adolf Hitler's OWN WORDS.

There are only two possibilities in Germany; do not imagine that the people will forever go with the middle party, the party of compromises; one day it will turn to those who have most consistently foretold the coming ruin and have sought to dissociate themselves from it. And that party is either the Left: and then God help us! for it will lead us to complete destruction - to Bolshevism, or else it is a party of the Right which at the last, when the people is in utter despair, when it has lost all its spirit and has no longer any faith in anything, is determined for its part ruthlessly to seize the reins of power - that is the beginning of resistance of which I spoke a few minutes ago. Here, too, there can be no compromise - there are only two possibilities: either victory of the Aryan, or annihilation of the Aryan and the victory of the Jew.

Adolf Hitler
Munich - Speech of April 12, 1922

Because the way the internet is being manipulated I honestly dont trust it. It's harder to manipulate a library with good old printed books.... Unless, Mandela did it!!! DUN DUN DUUUN!!!

a reply to: xBWOMPx

...but in reality people who know real history nazis have ALWAYS been a socialist. During WWII nazis were far right back then ONLY because there fellow counter part were communist.

Not in this reality, no. This is the place where people from the alternative reality get their fair share of mockery.

I thank they should all be fired and replaced with people that actually report the news instead of telling people what they should be angry about.

The report wasn't exactly non-news and it was factual to a certain degree. They didn't tell you why we have demonstrations going on though.
People demand an investigation into the NSU connections to the BfV, the usual cover-up of incompetence and plausible deniability dissolved into hot air the moment they locked up reports for 120 years due to "national security" concerns.
Get it? National security concerns?

Nothing to see here, let's talk about the "oh-so-social" Nazis instead?

originally posted by: xBWOMPx

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: xBWOMPx

Why are you stuck on this "go to the library" meme?

Your guarantee isn't worth the electrons it took to send it to the screen. Your position is just plain old ignorant.

These are Adolf Hitler's OWN WORDS.

There are only two possibilities in Germany; do not imagine that the people will forever go with the middle party, the party of compromises; one day it will turn to those who have most consistently foretold the coming ruin and have sought to dissociate themselves from it. And that party is either the Left: and then God help us! for it will lead us to complete destruction - to Bolshevism, or else it is a party of the Right which at the last, when the people is in utter despair, when it has lost all its spirit and has no longer any faith in anything, is determined for its part ruthlessly to seize the reins of power - that is the beginning of resistance of which I spoke a few minutes ago. Here, too, there can be no compromise - there are only two possibilities: either victory of the Aryan, or annihilation of the Aryan and the victory of the Jew.

Adolf Hitler
Munich - Speech of April 12, 1922

Because the way the internet is being manipulated I honestly dont trust it. It's harder to manipulate a library with good old printed books.... Unless, Mandela did it!!! DUN DUN DUUUN!!!

Oh come on. I guess you'll be living in the land of opinions then ... which is fine.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: xBWOMPx

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: xBWOMPx

Why are you stuck on this "go to the library" meme?

Your guarantee isn't worth the electrons it took to send it to the screen. Your position is just plain old ignorant.

These are Adolf Hitler's OWN WORDS.

There are only two possibilities in Germany; do not imagine that the people will forever go with the middle party, the party of compromises; one day it will turn to those who have most consistently foretold the coming ruin and have sought to dissociate themselves from it. And that party is either the Left: and then God help us! for it will lead us to complete destruction - to Bolshevism, or else it is a party of the Right which at the last, when the people is in utter despair, when it has lost all its spirit and has no longer any faith in anything, is determined for its part ruthlessly to seize the reins of power - that is the beginning of resistance of which I spoke a few minutes ago. Here, too, there can be no compromise - there are only two possibilities: either victory of the Aryan, or annihilation of the Aryan and the victory of the Jew.

Adolf Hitler
Munich - Speech of April 12, 1922

Because the way the internet is being manipulated I honestly dont trust it. It's harder to manipulate a library with good old printed books.... Unless, Mandela did it!!! DUN DUN DUUUN!!!

Oh come on. I guess you'll be living in the land of opinions then ... which is fine.

No, libraries do exist when your wanting a history lesson you will learn better there.

a reply to: face23785

I don't see a lot of reason for us to continue to converse.

I didn't "weasel" out of anything, you took two posts of mine, unrelated to each other except that they are both within this discussion and tired to make something of it. There's nothing to make of it.

What do you think there is of merit in your post to respond to? You're merely waving your hands over what the terms "right" and "left" mean in regard to politics. While there are, arguably, nuances to consider across about 250 years of the terms (as used in France in the 1790s or in the 20s in Munich and in 2018 USA), the vast difference in the terms that you seem to perceive just aren't there.

When Hitler used the term Right, it is obvious from context he meant authoritarian (totalitarian) thus his use of the phrase "to ruthlessly seize the reins of power" to describe what he was calling for in the Nazi movement. (Perhaps you should read a translation of the speech?) It's quite obvious from context that he wasn't talking about "the Left" (which was Marxism/Bolshevism) nor was he talking about the compromising middle (the Weimar Republic). Further he quite obviously equates the Left with Jews and the Right with his Ayrans

It's also quite obvious that the political descriptions mean virtually the same things in 20th Century Munich that they mean in 21st Century America.

Are you also averse to anything other than libraries? If so, is there a reference on the internet we can agree on the use of, to come to a common understanding of terminology?

Or, we can just let it go.

a reply to: xBWOMPx

You have heard Universal Basic Income kicked around here and there? The concept is rather than just a straight minimum wage or unemployment compensation or normal welfare, every one gets the UBI regardless of income or employment status. The idea being if you want a car or iPhone or whatever you would get a job and earn the money to buy it. Not a bad concept at first glance and even I toyed with the premise for a second or two before I even heard of it.

So I asked myself where does the money for the UBI come from? And that was when I realized how it would be collected (ungodly oppressive taxes) from the employed wishing to better their existence. UBI is a teenager’s set allowance and picking up a job working for the man to get an Xbox and few games.

The mystery to me isn’t that people would promote such a thing but that grown adults would want to live like that. Let me give it the proper terminology: ward of the state or a kept woman. Wasn’t there some social upheavals to get away from all that?

originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: xBWOMPx

You have heard Universal Basic Income kicked around here and there? The concept is rather than just a straight minimum wage or unemployment compensation or normal welfare, every one gets the UBI regardless of income or employment status. The idea being if you want a car or iPhone or whatever you would get a job and earn the money to buy it. Not a bad concept at first glance and even I toyed with the premise for a second or two before I even heard of it.

So I asked myself where does the money for the UBI come from? And that was when I realized how it would be collected (ungodly oppressive taxes) from the employed wishing to better their existence. UBI is a teenager’s set allowance and picking up a job working for the man to get an Xbox and few games.

The mystery to me isn’t that people would promote such a thing but that grown adults would want to live like that. Let me give it the proper terminology: ward of the state or a kept woman. Wasn’t there some social upheavals to get away from all that?

I'll take my hard work and reward to go, you can keep the lazy and the leaches, thanks!

originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: Gryphon66

Well even Socialist countries have to revert to some Progressive principles in order to conduct trade with Capitalist countries. Otherwise trade has to be locked down to an office of import/export. Free trade doesn’t work between collectives and individuals very well otherwise.

So all those socialist utopias in Europe, are actually more or less Progressive countries. While Venezuela went the government office route as a buffer and well, you see how that turned out when the only valued export prices tanked. But I still love the stories of how school teachers make $85k a year and gloss over that really it is about $25k after taxes.

I'm not aware of any truly socialist countries ... at least not in pure Marxist terminology.

Are you talking about the "Nordic Model"? That's not really socialism ... that is, again, a mixed economy.

Let's do some basic checksums ... when you say "socialist" are you equating that term with "welfare state"?