Christianity On The Decline In America.

a reply to: Seede

originally posted by: Seede
I believe you are mistaken. The Darwinian evolution relies entirely on the the very start of life such as exists today. There are several concepts of evolution which are taught in universities but the evolution we are discussing here is that of Darwin's theory.

Ugh...I don't understand in what way I can explain this to you so that it gets through. EVOLUTION DOESN'T DEAL WITH THE ORIGIN OF LIFE. THAT IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FIELD.
You keep talking about "relies on". You go on and on and on and on about it.That doesn't mean anything!

My ability to read paperbacks relies on the production of paper, yes. But my reading books would in no way be affected if paper was created by magic space wizards, or rat droppings mixed with orangutan snot, or smashed up trees. MY READING OF BOOKS DOES NOT MAKE ANY STATEMENT ABOUT HOW BOOKS ARE MADE.

The theory of gravity relies on the existence of matter, yes. But the results and findings of that theory makes no mention of the origin of matter. It is not relevant to its findings or observations if matter magically appeared everytime a unicorn farted, or every time a space goat sneezed, or every time an explosion in spacetime occured. ANY ONE OF THOSE ORIGINS OF MATTER COULD BE TRUE, AND NOT ONE OF THEM WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THE THEORY OF GRAVITY AND WHAT THE THEORY OF GRAVITY SAYS.

The theory of evolution relies on the existence of life, yes. But the theory of evolution makes no claims about how life originally came into existence. The observations and findings that the theory of evolution is based on and what it fortells, wouldn't change one whit if life was created when Gandalf punched Sauron in his one ring, or if Chuck Norris came back from the future and copulated with a bunch of rocks, or if space aliens sent bacteria from Mars, or if lightning struck a muddy radiated pool near some lava. ANY ONE OF THOSE ORIGINS OF LIFE COULD BE TRUE, AND NOT ONE OF THEM WOULD MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE TO THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND WHAT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION SAYS.

Whew....now, btw, you're wrong about everything else as well.

originally posted by: Seede
Actually this is not an argument on my part and I really could care less on how others view a source. The entire issue is a matter of theoretical or theological perspectives of various beliefs. An example of this is the orthodox Hebrews view as is stated in their bible which clearly states that their God made man in their God's image and after His likeness and not in the likeness of non-hominoid simians or like minded species.

It's not the orthodox hebrew view. Biblical literalism is the view of only some haredi rabbis. The rest of Orthodox Judaism (and Judaism in general) is that the importance of the ethical significance rather than factual significance of scripture, quoting Maimonides saying that not everything in Genesis is meant to be taken literally, and that if science came up with something that was shown to be true and conflicting with understanding of scripture, the scripture would have to be reinterpreted.

a reply to: babloyi

It's not the orthodox hebrew view. Biblical literalism is the view of only some haredi rabbis. The rest of Orthodox Judaism (and Judaism in general) is that the importance of the ethical significance rather than factual significance of scripture, quoting Maimonides saying that not everything in Genesis is meant to be taken literally, and that if science came up with something that was shown to be true and conflicting with understanding of scripture, the scripture would have to be reinterpreted.

Your perception of Torah is completely wrong. Moses who is the author of the collective works of Torah, lived 1313 BCE to 1273 BCE. There were no rabbis in the Hebrew national concept of monotheism at that time and Torah was forbidden to be changed by penalty of death. Even today Torah is forbidden to be changed in the written concept as well as the oral concept.

In this day of rabbinic Judaic Orthodoxy or Conservatism or Reformation it still is forbidden to change one signature of Torah. Rambam may have somewhat changed his view of the Tanakh and fell away from the Prophets teachings [which has been done] but in no way has Rambam ever changed oral Torah which is the written Torah. There is no such thing as ethical understanding in Torah. That is why oral Torah existed in the first place. We study written Torah along with oral Torah for that very reason that you are misled to believe. Rabbis such as Rashi, who are commentators, have no license to change any of Torah but have taken upon themselves to change the Prophets. That is why we see three major divisions of Judaism today.

This is why I stated that –
“An example of this is the orthodox Hebrews view as is stated in their bible which clearly states that their God made man in their God's image and after His likeness and not in the likeness of non-hominoid simians or like minded species.”

Genesis 1:26- And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.'

This is why I stated that the Darwinian evolution starts with the inception of life in the orthodoxy of the Hebrews. The reason is simple. Man was not the product of evolution to Moses’ mind. Man was the product of creation in Moses’ mind and that was the start of the Adamic seed. Therefore Darwinian evolution is not of Orthodoxy Hebrew understanding. There is no other way to understand that statement if you are an Orthodox Jew and no other way to judge this matter if you are an Orthodox Jew. Rabbinic Judaism [such as Conservative or Reformed] today is but a shadow of what Moses taught in 1272 BCE.

The way you have stated gives me the understanding that you are proposing, along with Darwinian teachings, that man was not literally created as a man but instead evolved into a man after another sort of existence. You now have the same sort of mind set as the university evolutionists teaches. i reject that theory as I have posted. lol

a reply to: Seede
My perception of the Torah is irrelevant, I made no reference to it. I was talking about the vast majority of Judaic thought as it refers to their scripture.
And you keep talking about "changing the scripture". Where on earth did anyone say anything about changing anything?
The scripture is simply not taken literally by the vast majority of Judaic thought, a school of thought all the way back from the 12th century.

And I'm sorry, but now you're mixing up your points even further. You were initially talking about the origin of life. You kept talking about the origin of life, and were constantly claiming that Evolution had something to say about that, which is as absurdly false as saying that magnetism has an opinion on the cause of heart disease.

If you're talking about the origin of man, then yes, Evolution makes claims about that. HOWEVER, even relating to that, Jewish thought overwhelmingly accepts the fact of evolution (except for some haredi rabbis within the orthodox community).

The religious hissy-fit with regards to evolution in the US is ONLY due to evangelical christian groups. Nobody else cares to bother about arguing with reality.