The Real Issue With The Administration's (Former) Immigration Policy

First off, I'd like to thank Trump for reversing his stance on the recent immigration drama.

Now, setting aside the emotional "for the children" stuff... here's what I find to be the most troubling. It amazes me at how fast so many Americans jumped up to support such authoritarian nonsense.

I am in no way, shape, or form supporting illegal border crossings, but the Fox News talking point of, "If you don't want your children ripped away, then don't break the law, stupid!" is absolute rubbish. "The law is the law" argument only holds up if all laws are equal, and they're not. There's a difference between going 5 miles over the speed limit, and murder. Heck, there's a difference between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degree murder. Not all laws are equal, nor are their punishments.

Let's get one thing straight here. In the U.S., crossing the border illegally the first time is a misdemeanor offense, and our President set the policy precedent of jailing everyone, and taking their children away, for this misdemeanor offense. Let that sink in.

There's a very valid debate as to whether or not such an offense should be classified as something more serious than a misdemeanor (I happen to think there are many good reasons to change it to a more serious offense), but it is what it is... a misdemeanor.

Trumps recent policy was the most authoritarian power assertion I've seen since the NDAA, and the Patriot Act before it. Jailing and taking children away from someone for committing a misdemeanor offense is something that should make any rational American highly concerned as to the direction this country continues to move, and I just can't seem to get my head around why so many "conservative" Americans locked in goose-step right behind to support it.

I'm sure there are many from the left who will jump to the ol' standby of "racism", and I acknowledge there's always that outlier fringe of idiots, but I don't accept that to be anything remotely close to the rationale of the majority of support such action received. I suppose if I were to take a guess I'd chalk it up to the majority of it being the "politics is sport" mentality that seems so ever-present and toxic in today's political realm. That notion of, "my team can do no wrong, and I'll stand by them through thick and thin".

Please, ease up on the "politics is sport" mentality, and exercise some independent thought and critical thinking. I don't want this country to be somewhere that misdemeanors are met with people being locked up, or having someone's kids tossed in foster care. Such authoritarian policy precedents are no good for the country regardless of which "team" decides to implement them. Authoritarian policy is not healthy for democracy, and I'm glad the President was persuaded to backtrack his recent mistake.

What do you think?

Can we, as Americans, step back from this political cliff, or will we continue on with each party inching us closer and closer to the edge trying to out-do one another?

a reply to: redmage

I spent 7 months once in a county jail for a misdemeanor.

Of course, I was a citizen and not a protected class, so there is that.

However, a misdemeanor will get you jail time.

So can you rephrase the question a bit... or do we have to change the laws so that illegal aliens are now just mistreated undocumented Democratic voters?

Because this is all the current discussion really is... politics.

You can't take that out of the equation... because it IS the equation.

Amen. That was my greatest shock in this too; that so many intelligent people so quickly changed everything they believe in. It is definitely a weird political climate.

Every time the government changes policy, everyone's values and personal beliefs change with it. That must make it very hard to have a set of personal beliefs if they have to change on cue.

originally posted by: Lumenari
I spent 7 months once in a county jail for a misdemeanor.

It seems there's more to that story that you chose not to share. Repeat offender?

originally posted by: Lumenari
However, a misdemeanor will get you jail time.

Under some extenuating circumstances a misdemeanor can get you jail time, but such measures certainly are not the norm; so, the notion that one "will" get you jail time seems a bit of a stretch.

originally posted by: Lumenari
Because this is all the current discussion really is... politics.

You can't take that out of the equation... because it IS the equation.

Politics formerly dealt with people having beliefs regarding issues and how to approach them, and that has pretty much gone out the window. What I'm referring to is the "politics as sport" mentality where now there really are no traditionally held political beliefs beyond, "my team can do no wrong, and I'll stick with them through thick and thin". As one example, "conservatives" used to believe in fiscal responsibility, yet we have a republican President, House, and Senate who just passed a trillion dollar deficit. Both parties have abandoned their traditional beliefs for the current "politics as sport" mentality, and have become two sides of the same authoritarian coin.

a reply to: redmage

Trumps recent policy was the most authoritarian power assertion I've seen since the NDAA, and the Patriot Act before it. Jailing and taking children away from someone for committing a misdemeanor offense is something that should make any rational American highly concerned as to the direction this country continues to move, and I just can't seem to get my head around why so many "conservative" Americans locked in goose-step right behind to support it.

Nice talking point with absolutely no truth to it.

Trump was not the one who started separating families.

If you are going to put the parents in jail, the kids should not go with them

Now we will wait for a small amount of time (probably an hour or so) and them you can use the next talking point of how dare President Trump lock up kiddies in prison.

One solution ... the only one ... don't process the incoming. Throw them back straight away.

Because then, the problem stops altogether.

P

a reply to: pheonix358

It's not a "talking point".

If you bothered to actually read my post you would have seen that I think there are good arguments for increasing the status of illegal border crossings to something more serious than a mere misdemeanor, and that certainly doesn't align with any "talking points" your partisan reply implies.

originally posted by: redmage
a reply to: pheonix358

It's not a "talking point".

If you bothered to actually read my post you would have seen that I think there are good arguments for increasing the status of illegal border crossings to something more serious than a mere misdemeanor, and that certainly doesn't align with any "talking points" your partisan reply implies.

You stated above!

Trumps recent policy was the most authoritarian power assertion I've seen since the NDAA, and the Patriot Act before it. Jailing and taking children away from someone for committing a misdemeanor offense is something that should make any rational American highly concerned as to the direction this country continues to move, and I just can't seem to get my head around why so many "conservative" Americans locked in goose-step right behind to support it.

Stick it!

P

a reply to: pheonix358

Perhaps you don't understand what "talking points" are.

Talking points are bullet points handed down by republicans and democrats to push and spin their constantly-changing party views.

You seem to imply that what I said is derived from a political affiliation, in this case you seem to imply that such would be left/Democratic.

Along with the segment you cherry picked, I also said in my post...

originally posted by: redmage
There's a very valid debate as to whether or not such an offense should be classified as something more serious than a misdemeanor (I happen to think there are many good reasons to change it to a more serious offense), but it is what it is... a misdemeanor.

Certainly my belief that such a crime should likely be considered a more serious offense doesn't align with your "lefty talking points" implications.

I guess I'm a bit old for your kiddie banter, so is this where I'm supposed to reply with my own "stick it!"?

It was not President Trumps bill he wrote into law. He simply enforced the law. So there is that. And Dems always forget little Ellion taken at gun point by Janet Reno and Mr. Ex Prez Clinton.
President Trump didn’t want this, but it was forcefully crammed down his throat by Dems and the MSM to make him look bad because their side sucks.
Vote to raise taxes, open the borders, Republicans are racist, what about the children (except abortions), pee in a girls bathroom if you have a penis and a dress (which I’m border line on), but that’s their platform, and they suck.

a reply to: TexasTruth

I specifically chose not to put this thread in the "mud pit" because I really couldn't care less about the left/right nonsense.

What concerns me is authoritarianism, and the way I see it both major parties are driving us towards that cliff.

Can we, as Americans, exercise critical and independent thinking, or has the "politics is sport" mentality taken us too far to turn back?

a reply to: redmage

Let's get one thing straight here. In the U.S., crossing the border illegally the first time is a misdemeanor offense, and our President set the policy precedent of jailing everyone, and taking their children away, for this misdemeanor offense. Let that sink in.

Okay. Letting it sink it.
What does the law say about it?

(a)Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both

www.law.cornell.edu...

Up to 2 years in prison. The law.

There's a very valid debate as to whether or not such an offense should be classified as something more serious than a misdemeanor (I happen to think there are many good reasons to change it to a more serious offense), but it is what it is... a misdemeanor.

Ah. Now the law is what it is. Got it.

a reply to: redmage

Trumps recent policy was the most authoritarian power assertion I've seen since the NDAA, and the Patriot Act before it. Jailing and taking children away from someone for committing a misdemeanor offense is something that should make any rational American highly concerned as to the direction this country continues to move, and I just can't seem to get my head around why so many "conservative" Americans locked in goose-step right behind to support it.

Just a quick search here:
www.huffingtonpost.com...

It happens everyday. Is it right? Probably not.

originally posted by: redmage
Can we, as Americans, exercise critical and independent thinking, or has the "politics is sport" mentality taken us too far to turn back?

It's not looking good for us, certainly.

As issues arise in today's political climate (immigration the current hot-topic) everyone seems to not look at the issue itself but how they can spin it to work for their political party. The problems in our country aren't what matter anymore - only winning matters. It's sport, as you say. We kick a ball (blame) back and forth, someone "wins" and we just play again tomorrow.

It's a horrible waste of time.

a reply to: highvein

I think here's where the issue is...

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both

It's currently a misdemeanor, and there are options regarding punishment. Fines, imprisonment, or both.

Mandatory imprisonment was a policy choice by the President, and no one "forced" him to enact the mandatory-imprisonment policy he chose. He could have just as easily chosen to only enforce the fines option, both fines and imprisonment, or left it to discretion in a case by case basis as previous administrations have done. He used personal policy choices to negate punishment options in the existing law.

Myself, I see that as an authoritarian problem. Arbitrarily negating legal options is not the President's job. His job is to uphold and defend the law.

originally posted by: highvein
Up to 2 years in prison. The law.

For "subsequent commission of any such offense" you would be correct, but that's not a first offense.

originally posted by: JinMI
It happens everyday. Is it right? Probably not.

I wholeheartedly agree.

a reply to: redmage

can you please show the policy you speak of?

or reversing his stance on the recent immigration drama.

He's been saying for weeks that he wanted a law and to work with congress.

He waited, they did nothing, so he ended the BS with an EO.

EDIT: Even if we were to assume that this was HIS policy to reverse, and he had made no overtures to end the policy at all with regard to legislation, the fact that he signed an EO means that he's listening, right?

I wonder what that does to the dictator-Trump narrative?

Wonder how long till the first heart breaking story hits the news of a child being sold by the "adult" they arrived with.


Then we get a whole knew level of trump is literally hitler.

a reply to: redmage

There should be no drama,the country is upholding laws,no change needs to be made,laws stand as they are till voted on

a reply to: network dude
I think the OP is referring to this:
www.justice.gov...

No room for discretion? Zero tolerance? Smoking pot is a federal felony. Why aren't they going after pot smokers! A lot more of them than illegal immigrants. Probably easier to catch too.