Quiet Desperation

a reply to: zosimov

Funny you would make this connection between Thoroeau and Pink Floyd. Particularly a quote from Walden.

This may be of interest to you...

Thoreau wrote from a cabin overlooking a body of water, Walden pond. Roger Waters and David Gilmour wrote many of Pink Floyd's later songs from a houseboat on the water, on the River Thames.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Tucket

originally posted by: FyreByrd
The fruits of capitalism.

I'd call it godlessness

Of course you do, honey

Obey that good old time authoritarian religion and be saved (for later).

really..

You make the silly claim that somehow it's capitalism's fault, yet mock me for suggesting people are spiritually dead..

not godlessness...more like cluelessness..

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: FyreByrd

Fair point.

What do you envision will/should replace the current system?

As long as Man rules there is no better, humans have a flaw it drives them to greed.
The 10th leading cause of death in the Us now is suicide.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

That is kind of depressing way to view life. That we have a gene or innate quality that drives us to greed. That would mean that we are sabotaged from birth with the cards stacked against us.

So back to the nature vs nurture argument?

I wonder if there was a country that had freedom as its top priority and a very well established way of viewing life as a social order, would these issues still exist?

If this is a desire that we are born with, all of the world should be the same. Is it? Was it better in the past?

I think all of these mental issues and depression/desperation are simply a reflection of the times. It is the current ideology that is being forced upon us that is causing all of this grief.

a reply to: ClovenSky

Hmm.

Religion was always part of the equation, it's not for everyone and this was true 1000 years ago too.

External influences tend to define us, I somewhat agree that it's more of a sign of the times but at the same time I've never felt that happiness comes from external factors.

True happiness anyways.

I don't feel we can truly be at peace with the world till we are at peace with ourselves, same goes for acceptance, love and faith. From personal experience I can attest that the things that have happiness for me come from deep seated thoughts and beliefs.

Expressing the internal externally... It's why I genuinely miss gardening since I haven't been able to do it. I could hunt and fish but it doesn't hold the same weight as gardening for me. It comes from a want of self reliance, to nurture and care and gain knowledge. Tasting the fruits of one's labour is truly a great experience yet I failed a lot too.

Me and my crops had one thing in common, we wanted to live. I guess we came to rely on one another too. I never demanded fruit nor did they demand I'd be their caretaker. But I did plant them.

We are fools at times, overcomplicated the simplicity of life. I guess what I'm saying is the human world can be very deceptive, we cater for our wants too often and not our needs.

originally posted by: SeaWorthy

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: FyreByrd

Fair point.

What do you envision will/should replace the current system?

As long as Man rules there is no better, humans have a flaw it drives them to greed.
The 10th leading cause of death in the Us now is suicide.

Its not a flaw, it's nature.

Being successful, (ie. rich), means you will be able to provide better for yourself and your family. In earlier days, having money and means could mean the difference between survival and death.

While it is obviously taken much too far by some, greed does have a purpose.

a reply to: zosimov

Again, brilliant thread Zosimov

I particularly liked your description of the 'symptoms' of the disease. But what is the disease?

But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things.

I particularly liked this part of the quote, I fundamentally believe that we're good deep down, I guess the quote could be taken either way too, do we not do desperate things due to our love for one another or is it due to the fear of consequences?

Either way it's other's we fear.



A lot of this thread reminded me of this song, not for everyone so I'll link the lyrics. Here

Again. Particularly the last part of the song:

The idea of community will be something displayed at a museum

We can make a heaven of hell. As a human, a social creature I'd like to believe that heaven has a community. Hell is just existing with other people. Like the world we are slowly descending into.

The whole world at our feet, nearly 8 billion people and all the knowledge we could ever acquire at our finger tips. Yet quiet desperation is a very real thing.

Like missing loneliness when you're truly alone... One thinks of the hermit in a cave.

Nice thought provoking thread

a reply to: nightbringr

Money is created, animals do not trade currency.

When I have a BBQ everything is shared equally, in fact I've never been to a BBQ where this isn't the case and I've been to many and had them in literally every weather.

Greed serves a purpose, no need to be greedy when a bounty is on offer and as humans our idea of poverty and wealth is literally a man made thing. We're smart enough not to starve, every single one of use can thrive or share with those in need.

Wants and needs.

a reply to: RAY1990

I agree completely that contentment and peace of mind are complete internal constructs. Those who find and attain contentment through internal means will be the same regardless of their external surroundings.

But how many people exists that satisfy themselves by discovering themselves versus those who try and fill the void through their environment? I find there are many people that fit the later category compared with the first. Does our current mass ideology satisfy personal growth? IMO I think it doesn't. It is currently teaching us a false lesson and that ideology is what is leading to the mass suffering we are witnessing today.

Another poster pointed out my use of the word 'sheep'. They stated that if people follow my ideology, then they are 'woke' versus being blinded by following greed and the material world. I would have to disagree. If they simply follow an ideology, even if it is one I support and encourage, that doesn't make them 'woke'. The reasoning behind why they are following or choose to follow one way compared to another way is the most important reason. The ability to clearly state why they believe the way they do is much more important. Basically the persons use of critical thought.

Now for those that don't think critically. Would they be happier if they followed the correct ideology, even if they didn't understand why?

a reply to: ClovenSky

Now for those that don't think critically. Would they be happier if they followed the correct ideology, even if they didn't understand why?

Maybe in the short term, after all we tend to crave social activity. Seemingly many follow ideologies, fads and the like just to be accepted into a group. Influence based commitments.

I'm capable of that critical thought malarkey, unsure if it ultimately stems from bone idleness towards causes that are not my own. I'm left with a thought that long term following of someone else's cause that doesn't actually stir one's soul or create long-winding thought can only be bad for a person. Just wasted energy really, that's what I think atm.

What is the correct ideology? I think it varies from person to person but all good ideologies share some fundamental truths.

But thoughts and beliefs are subject to change it's why this quote stands out for me:

A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. Muhammad Ali

I don't want to be a sheep, I guess if goats go to hell I will be too I want to climb that proverbial mountain, if it ain't all that great I'll seek the sea. I'll be doing it for me, I never liked following others but going on a journey with company?

The best paths are walked with company.

Seemingly these days most of the Shepard's are lost, if they ever existed at all. I'd like to break that spell, being lost isn't fun and after all those "sheep" are my brothers and sisters. I care about them.

Personal growth. I love seeing it in others, I used to think my sister was an idiot and had shallow tendencies I feel nothing but pride thinking of her now. Critical thinking is a developed trait. Hence why I linked that quote. It rings true.

a reply to: RAY1990

I believe you use critical thought often, as evidenced by your reasoning.

What if there is one path. The path being simply how this reality operates. What if intuition is the souls way to shouting out 'here it is' or 'that makes sense'. Haven't you ever been drawn to a text or words that just seems right? Where other texts you can't even concentrate on? What if that is intuition or the soul?

If you have the understanding of this reality from the beginning, is it a bad thing to adhere to that philosophy or ideology if it brings you contentment or satisfaction? Especially if it is the right path, the path of truth or the way this reality operates. Even if you discover it at 20 and carry it through to your 80? When it brings you happiness and allows you to bring happiness to those you come in contact with.

Maybe it is past lives that have found the truth, maybe that is what intuition is. Maybe it is the better part of our souls still locked behind the veil that has intimate knowledge of what this reality is and getting to know ourselves simply means getting to know our true soul.

a reply to: TonyS

Thank you for adding your insight to the topic at hand, and especially for pointing out the suicide and opiod crisis-- two tragic outcomes of today's disease.

I agree with your ideas on jealousy and how it fuels into the quiet desperation mentioned in OP.

Thanks again, enjoy your Friday!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Ha ha, very cool Pink Floyd trivia, thank you.

Hi Ray! I always enjoy your thoughtful input.. thank you for reading and adding insight to the subject!

Especially loved this:

originally posted by: RAY1990


We can make a heaven of hell. As a human, a social creature I'd like to believe that heaven has a community. Hell is just existing with other people. Like the world we are slowly descending into.

The whole world at our feet, nearly 8 billion people and all the knowledge we could ever acquire at our finger tips. Yet quiet desperation is a very real thing.

Like missing loneliness when you're truly alone... One thinks of the hermit in a cave.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: SeaWorthy

That is kind of depressing way to view life. That we have a gene or innate quality that drives us to greed. That would mean that we are sabotaged from birth with the cards stacked against us.

So back to the nature vs nurture argument?

I wonder if there was a country that had freedom as its top priority and a very well established way of viewing life as a social order, would these issues still exist?

If this is a desire that we are born with, all of the world should be the same. Is it? Was it better in the past?

I think all of these mental issues and depression/desperation are simply a reflection of the times. It is the current ideology that is being forced upon us that is causing all of this grief.

I believe in the ancient texts and I believe they have been prophetically correct.
You say a reflection of these times I agree.

2 Timothy 3:1But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. 2For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,…

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,

Jude 1:18
when they said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires."

We are broken creatures, we lost our perfection but we have a chance to get it back and all we need to do is be decent and have faith. The evidence is all around us including the clear nature of children from birth.

www.desiringgod.org...

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are “sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all “by nature children of wrath.” If we are all “by nature children of wrath,” it can only be because we are all by nature sinners — for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: RAY1990

But how many people exists that satisfy themselves by discovering themselves versus those who try and fill the void through their environment? I find there are many people that fit the later category compared with the first. Does our current mass ideology satisfy personal growth? IMO I think it doesn't. It is currently teaching us a false lesson and that ideology is what is leading to the mass suffering we are witnessing today.

Great points, I would say that many attempt to face down desperation by trying to fill the void through external means.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

I agree that being decent and having faith are two of the best ways to handle life!

a reply to: ClovenSky

I have to admit, your post touched a nerve in a very positive way.

I've always been fascinated with stories of old and religion, yet some can be nothing but a source of headache as I read the same few lines over and over. Recently I've been reflecting a lot on the Norse God stories, particularly Odin.

I find his quest for knowledge to be one that vibes with me, the giving of his eye for wisdom, sacrificing of himself onto himself for knowledge. His daily release of his Ravens Huginn and Muninn to search for knowledge. Genuinely beautiful.

I'm not ascribed to an ideology though and not sure if I ever will, I'll always be looking for knowledge though.

Getting back to that feeling of right. It's such a bewildering thing. I've had some fun with reality and if reality is a conscious thing it's surely had a bit fun with me too! I've had a few experiences that laugh in the face of 'rational' thought and the apparent laws of reality. All I can say is that we have much we may never understand. So much unseen but will it remain unseen?

I can't say but I'll forever look.

Maybe it is past lives that have found the truth, maybe that is what intuition is. Maybe it is the better part of our souls still locked behind the veil that has intimate knowledge of what this reality is and getting to know ourselves simply means getting to know our true soul.

I love this, it's a lingering thought I've never shook, reality is funny. I got these thoughts when I found my first 4-leaf clover, I found nearly ten now... I'm not looking for them either I'm just drawn to them. Always makes me smile finding one.

As for past lives... Who knows? I do know 1 or 2 people I feel I've spent eons with. Ever felt someone's presence enter a building and knowing it's them without actually seeing them?

I feel our existence is but a facade of a very large building, one we'll only ever get to see the entrance of in this existence.

Lovely post btw

a reply to: zosimov



Always a pleasure, I always enjoy your threads since they're thought provoking and I always learn something.

Have a great weekend!

a reply to: ClovenSky

I agree with Ray that this is really a lovely post.