Ancient Egyptian visitors to Australia or miner's mishap?

Riddle of the rainforest coin

Hi ATS. Saw this interesting article from ABC news australia. Its about an egyptian coin found while digging a hole for a fence post in 1912, in thick rainforest in North Queensland. Did the egyptions travel to Australia? Or did the coin arrive in Australia via trading from Asia? Interesting.

www.abc.net.au...

Unearthed in 1912, squirreled away for a lifetime and then handed in to a museum — the story behind the discovery of an ancient Egyptian coin in far north Queensland is almost as mysterious as how it came to be there.

The bronze coin — about the same size as a 50 cent piece — was minted during the reign of Ptolemy IV, between 221 and 204BC.

More than two millennia later it was found about seven centimetres underground in the depths of the far north Queensland rainforest.

The man who found it, Andrew Henderson, had abandoned the gold mining fields of Victoria for a warmer climate.

"Henderson got a block of land in the scrub and he became a settler," far north Queensland historian, Dave Phoenix said.

"One day in 1912 he was building a fence line and as he was digging a hole for a fence post his shovel hit something metallic.

"He reached into the hole and pulled out this coin."
Henderson paid little attention to the coin at the time; when he returned home, he put it in a drawer and all but forgot about it for the next 40 years.

"When he got into his late 70s, when he was an old man he started divesting himself of his possessions," Mr Phoenix said.

"He gave the coin to his neighbour's 10-year-old son, a guy called Hank Gilmore."

Earlier this year Mr Gilmore offered the coin and its story to the Cairns Museum, sparking an investigation into how it found its way across the world.

A brief history of Ptolemy IV

Dr Andrew Connor, a lecturer in ancient history from Monash University, said to understand how or why the Ptolemaic coin came to rest in the rainforest, it is best to understand the man it was minted in honour of.

"Unlike his three predecessors, Ptolemy IV wasn't terribly interested in ruling," Dr Connor said.
"He spent a lot more time drinking, hanging out and working on his boat — a massive boat that was technically a warship but would probably have been impossible to row so it would have just sat in the water being luxurious.'"

And of the coins minted during Ptolemy IV's rule, Dr Connor said there were three types – gold, silver and bronze; all of which were used to further the influence and fame of the Ptolemaic rulers.

"Bronze coins were pretty much everywhere in the ancient world," he said.
"We think about the gold and the silver coins because they're nice, but they would have been worth a huge amount of money so for everyday business they would have used bronze."

It is for this reason, Dr Connor said, that bronze Ptolemaic coins often turn up in the most bizarre locations.

From desert to rainforest

The Ptolemaic kingdoms spread over the coastline and desert dunes of the area now known as Libya and Egypt — so how did a coin make it from the desert to the rainforest?

Mr Phoenix has pondered several possibilities, including theories from Egyptologists who believe Australia was colonised, or at least visited, by Egyptian sailors prior to European settlement.

"Given that the Djabugay people and the Yirrganydji people who's land the coin was found have no oral records of Egyptian people, and given that if there was a colony the only thing they left behind was a coin, that sounds a little bit far fetched," Mr Phoenix said.

He said the area that Henderson found the coin was along an Aboriginal track so it could have been dropped by a Aboriginal person.

"But how an Aboriginal person got the coin is again interesting, it's either going to have come through from Papua New Guinea and traded through the Torres Strait or traded through another part of Australia," he said.

"But again, what would an Aboriginal person have been carting a lump of bronze around for?"

Miner's memento

Among the most probable of theories is that the coin dropped out of a miner's pack as they walked along the Aboriginal trail on the way to the Hodgkinson gold fields west of Cairns.

"The Macalister Range and surrounding mountains were very quiet in terms of European occupation up until 1876," Mr Phoenix said.

"Then when gold was found thousands of people came here from all around the world, it was a really multicultural affair in Cairns and people may have carried coins like this as trinkets and souvenirs."

Dr Connor said of all the theories around the discovery of the Ptolemaic coin in far north Queensland, it being dropped by a miner was the most plausible.

"We know conclusively that this is the sort of thing that people would bring with them when they emigrated to Australia in the 19th Century," Dr Connor said.

"These sorts of things were a way, in the 19th Century, to be able to demonstrate your refinement or your culture.
"Especially for people who were working on digging metals out the earth to be looking at the fruits of that labour from 2,200 years ago."

From looking at old interpretations of writings, it appeared they had ships back long ago that could go around the oceans on the currents. A trip often took a year because they needed to wait for currents to form properly. Knowing how to read the seasonal star patterns could be used to know the timing of the trips.

The Chinese were believed to have visited Australia over 500 years ago supposedly
www.gavinmenzies.net...–-west-coast/
So the idea of trade with the natives isn't impossible
I have heard that the Chinese set up communities around the Swan River near Perth
There was little to no trade or commodities to justify staying I guess

I doubt the Egyptian coin came from an Egyptian, probably Korean,Japanese or Chinese traders

a reply to: Raggedyman

Some interesting info in that link, thanks.

A friend found an old Chinese coin (14th century) on his property in South Perth--a property that has been in his families possession since European settlement. While its possible the coin came to be at the property for a number of reasons, having Chinese settlements on the Swan River would account for this.

I dont know what history you know of the Swan River, but South Perth is about as far upstream you could get with boats back then, due to the Matagarup (now Herrison Island) wetlands.

a reply to: PBL666

I would think that was only in summer and depending on the size of the boat of course

a reply to: Raggedyman

1421 Chinese voyage springs to mind for me. I think the Chinese made it to nz as well,to mine jade/greenstone. Search hidden nz and have a read,lots of odd stuff found in nz. Search www.tangatawhenua.wix/ for a good read.

Eratosthenese, the Ptolemaic greek mathmatician, sent an expedition to the cirvumnavigate the world to test his work, according to interwebs mythology.

Around the year 232 B.C., Captain Rata and Navigator Maui set out with a flotilla of ships from Egypt in an attempt to circumnavigate the Earth.1 On the night of August 6-7, 2001, between the hours of 11 PM and 3 AM, this writer, and fellow amateur astronomer Bert Cooper, proved in principle that Captain Rata and Navigator Maui could have known and charted their location, by longitude, most of the time during that voyage.

The Maui expedition was under the guidance of Eratosthenes, the great scientist who was also the chief librarian of the library at Alexandria. Could this voyage have demonstrated Eratosthenes' theorem that the world was round, and measured approximately 24,500 miles in circumference? One of the navigational instruments which Maui had with him was a strange looking "calculator" that he called a tanawa; such an instrument was known, in 1492, as a torquetum.

Intrigued by a photograph of the cave drawing of that tanawa in Irian Jaya, western New Guinea, I speculated that Maui must have been looking at the ecliptic to measure "lunar distance,"

21sci-tech.com...



Just throwin that out there

There is a more plausible explanation - in that the coin was dropped or placed by a European. That said, I guess its possible that Egyptian ships got to Australia. We'll probably never know.

a reply to: harold223

I remember this coming up when someone pointed out Egyptian rock carvings in Australia. At the time, no one thought the Egyptian did much ocean sailing at all. Egyptologist debunks new claims about 'Gosford glyphs'

There was some writings about sailing to trade in the local area that made even short trips seem like a big deal for them. However, lately, more has come to light. Ships have been found and it looks like there were Egyptian explorers. World's Oldest Sea Vessels Discovered in Egypt

When you consider that part of the world Egypt is in, it's hard to believe they didn't sail the oceans. The country is pretty much surrounded by famous seafaring nations. If they didn't do it, they probably knew someone that did. Why didn't they write about it more?

Brien Foerster@s visit to Gosford..



Another Video worth the scrutiny ?

originally posted by: paraphi
There is a more plausible explanation - in that the coin was dropped or placed by a European. That said, I guess its possible that Egyptian ships got to Australia. We'll probably never know.

Australians were also stationed in North Africa for WWII (the date of the finding of the coin) and Egypt had been a travel destination for a long time.

I think it's a "luck piece" sent to someone or brought back home after a trip to Egypt. Ptolemaic coins (this was from about the time of Jesus, for those thinking that it's really really ancient) are not that unusual or that rare.

originally posted by: skywatcher44
Brien Foerster@s visit to Gosford..

Another Video worth the scrutiny ?

Those "hieroglyphs" are really bad modern forgeries. The patina and the errors show that.

originally posted by: toms54
When you consider that part of the world Egypt is in, it's hard to believe they didn't sail the oceans. The country is pretty much surrounded by famous seafaring nations. If they didn't do it, they probably knew someone that did. Why didn't they write about it more?

They didn't sail the oceans because they had pretty bad ships. During the time that Khufu lived (the time that the hoaxers are trying to say is when the fake hieroglyphs come from), their boats were reed platforms that wouldn't withstand much of a journey. Wooden boats weren't widely available until much later. Voyagers during the time of the New Kingdom did write about their trips, but nobody seems to have made it even as far as India (though goods came into the area via the "Silk Road" overland routes.

a reply to: Byrd

Bryd?
Who was the pharoah, a woman I believe, that commisioned the much fabled expedition to Punt in the 1480's bc, i do believe, yes Queen Hapshetsut.
A full sized working replica of a ship from her period has been built using traditional techniques and materials by arab ship builders who still practice those techniques in their day to day craft.
The ship was sailed by a naval architect, and former head of the US Americas Cup team, I'd say he's qualified to speak on such things, said it was one of the best downwind sailing boats he'd every piloted.
But he was clear it was a limited boat, and was sure that long journeys had to be seasonal affairs, where you went on direction one season and returned by a different route in another season, just as the indian/pakistani and arab sailors still do today, saling between the gulf and india.
So they did have the ability and skills needed, but I still find it unlikely that they made it out to the pacific.
They were more inclined to let their sailing neighbors, all the various "greeks" , lybians and canaanites bring stuff to them, rather than go out and get it themselves.
Dang, they never even found the headwaters of the river their lives revolved around.

a reply to: Byrd

Hi Byrd. I am not showing these Videos because I think these Glyphs are genuine although some think they are or that there were originally 50 Glyphs that have been added to or re-carved. Just for interest and the presenters within those videos know somewhat about Hieroglyphs like I realise that you do also.. The Brisbane Waters area are quite shallow also 36 Inches or so they may have been deeper a few thousand years ago ?
Or that first ship was maybe of a shallow draft Ha Ha..

Also for Interest.


www.tapatalk.com...

woywoynet.blogspot.com...


ancientneareast.org...

secretvisitors.wordpress.com... ( Old Maps amazing )

During the Victorian era, Egyptomania was all the rage. The more affluent members of society hosted mummy unwrapping parties. I think it's possible some ancient Egyptian artifacts could have made their way to all parts of the globe during that time.

During the mummification process, the embalmers would often place jewels and other precious items in the mummy's wrappings. Maybe they used bronze coins in the economy class mummification.

The other problem is the loss of context with the artifact's discovery. A coin that may have been sitting in a drawer for 50 years, then rediscovered by a 70 year old man, might have an origin story that is a bit muddled. The "old folks" sometimes have faulty memories and sometimes they unwittingly commingle different life experiences into stories that we "youngsters" find so compelling that we believe they have to be true.

-dex

originally posted by: skywatcher44
a reply to: Byrd

Hi Byrd. I am not showing these Videos because I think these Glyphs are genuine although some think they are or that there were originally 50 Glyphs that have been added to or re-carved.

They aren't. But you needn't take my word. There are hieroglyph study groups in Yahoo and all it would take is a little reading on your part of the "how to read ancient Egyptian" books to understand just how "off" they are and that they couldn't possibly be genuine.

And, of course, to a historian the "art" has all the earmarks of being done by English speaking people with no real understanding of how the Egyptians did art or what their graffiti would have looked like... and how really bad the Gosford fakes are.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: paraphi
There is a more plausible explanation - in that the coin was dropped or placed by a European. That said, I guess its possible that Egyptian ships got to Australia. We'll probably never know.

Australians were also stationed in North Africa for WWII (the date of the finding of the coin) and Egypt had been a travel destination for a long time.

I think it's a "luck piece" sent to someone or brought back home after a trip to Egypt. Ptolemaic coins (this was from about the time of Jesus, for those thinking that it's really really ancient) are not that unusual or that rare.

That is a very plausible explanation. The only thing really against that if you go by the original story of the coins discovery is that it was found 7cm down in remote bushland. As anther poster mentioned in here though, the story of the coins discovery may have been muddied by time and peoples memories.

**edit** it was actually 1912 when it was supposed to have been discovered. Australians were in Egypt on their way to battles in Turkey in WW1 although i'm still not sure that would add up to the coin being found 7cm under ground.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: toms54
When you consider that part of the world Egypt is in, it's hard to believe they didn't sail the oceans. The country is pretty much surrounded by famous seafaring nations. If they didn't do it, they probably knew someone that did. Why didn't they write about it more?

They didn't sail the oceans because they had pretty bad ships. During the time that Khufu lived (the time that the hoaxers are trying to say is when the fake hieroglyphs come from), their boats were reed platforms that wouldn't withstand much of a journey. Wooden boats weren't widely available until much later. Voyagers during the time of the New Kingdom did write about their trips, but nobody seems to have made it even as far as India (though goods came into the area via the "Silk Road" overland routes.

I'm sure what you say is true if you go back in history far enough. I didn't try to argue these hieroglyphs were authentic. If you even read my post you will see my source article debunked them. Maybe everyone had crappy boats in the time of Khufu. That doesn't make the above quote from my post invalid. I stand by it.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: toms54
When you consider that part of the world Egypt is in, it's hard to believe they didn't sail the oceans. The country is pretty much surrounded by famous seafaring nations. If they didn't do it, they probably knew someone that did. Why didn't they write about it more?

They didn't sail the oceans because they had pretty bad ships. During the time that Khufu lived (the time that the hoaxers are trying to say is when the fake hieroglyphs come from), their boats were reed platforms that wouldn't withstand much of a journey. Wooden boats weren't widely available until much later. Voyagers during the time of the New Kingdom did write about their trips, but nobody seems to have made it even as far as India (though goods came into the area via the "Silk Road" overland routes.

In the early 1970's Thor Heyerdahl made several ocean crossings using a papyrus boat based on ancient Egyptian designs. Just for the sake of argument, would a boat like the one he used have been available in ancient Egypt around the time when the bronze coin, detailed in the OP, was minted? And if so, is there any reason to believe that such a boat could not have been sailed to Australia from Egypt, given Heyerdahl's success in crossing the Atlantic?

-dex