Europe is a bigger enemy to Israel than Islam

a reply to: Flavian

Britain has no desire whatsoever in the 1930's to let any part of its empire go, even India was well under control. Only WW2 forced de colonisation afterwards, the idea that London was going to let that part of the Middle East get self rule is confused, Palestine was only just included under the Brits rule and it was desirable to keep being next door to Suez our lifeline. A homeland for Jewsas promised to Weizzmann for saving us in WW1................ Yes...............Independence with self rule? No way............................... Hence the Hagganah, Stern's etc took matters into their own hands, especially when Britain limited immigration pre WW2 to appease the Arab world

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

That fills a lot of the blanks. Thank you, sir. I always thought the Suez was a major consideration and played a major part in allowing the formation of an independent Israel, post-WWII. After all, Better to have a Jewish state on one side and a Muslim state on the other side than a potential complete control by Arabs/Muslims with Levant still a future potential to avoid. Hence, Sykes-Picot?

I know nothing about Weizzmann and 'saving us' in WWI. Could you give us your understanding of those events?

It would be appreciated.

a reply to: nwtrucker

We were still on the Empire growth post WW1 Britain and France took over the ME and as you say divided amongst themselves through Sykes Pikovant. British General Allenby has just forced the Turks out of that area so stayed put and started to bring the Trans Jordan region within the Imperial zone, bringing in new ports, telegraph poles and the Royal Mail.

On the Weizmann front yes this guy was a British scientist from Manchester University who saved us in WW1. Britain was done for, we couldn't produce enough munitions due to the blockade and we were looking to surrender to the Central Powers, then Weizmann managed to create acetone without the need to bring in raw materials from the Colonies. British arms production resumed and we managed to hold out along with the French until the USA arrived and Germany realised that massive industrial giant was not defeatable so they gave up the game and surrendered.

Following the invention of acetone through the Weizmann technique the scientist was asked what prize he wanted for his saving of the British Empire. With the terrible fate of Jews in eastern Europe and the pogroms, more so even the absolute starvation and poverty for those over there that hadn't managed already to escape to the New World, Weizmann asked for a homeland to be created for the Jewish people in need, the British Government agreed and they wrote up the Balfour Declaration which sought to follow his wishes. The result was fervour in the poverty stricken eastern Europe and Zionism became the dream of millions, societies emerged to follow through on the Declaration and the rest as they say is history.

Incredibly coincidental that at the same time this declaration was made the British Empire took over what was to become the future land of Israel

Double

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It becomes clearer at to why 'divine intervention' receives consideration.......

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Sorry but I don't recall the number or the exact date. Perhaps as an earlier poster stated it was the '47 vote.

I suspect that that earlier poster was me. UN Resolution 181 was the proposed 1947 partition of Palestine that effectively founded Israel by proposing the division of Palestine into two entities. It was accepted by one side, but not the other and led to an almost immediate civil war. And the USA voted for it. That's why I was confused - you were claiming that the USA did not vote for it when it did.

I haven't seen anything on it except many decades back a movie on it. It was a major movie, not an 'indie'. I was in my teens, IIRC, and it depicted a bunch of Jews hunkered around a radio listening to the vote. In it the U.S. abstains. I don't know, in hindsight, that was true or 'artistic liberty'. That thought never crossed back in the day. If it's wrong then sobeit. If the U.S. did vote for it, it was going along with Britain and the rest of Europe, one would think.

It doesn't change the basic premise of European culpability, from what I can see.

Thanks for the information....

I think it might have been this film - Cast a Giant Shadow, as I seem to remember it vaguely as well. I suspect a large dose of artistic licence.
This is a fantastically complicated subject and also a highly controversial one. I will simply say that in the wake of the horrific tragedy that was the Holocaust the Jewish people wanted a place to call their own, so that they could defend themselves. 'Blaming' Europe for the creation of Israel, or claiming that it had culpability, is to oversimplify things more than a bit.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Did you read ufoorbhunter's last post. As I believed, this oppression and bigotry predates WWII. Hence the Balfour Declaration, then Sykes-Picot agreement, both of which predate WWII.

The bigotry was well in place long before Hitler and the holocaust.

Then again, perhaps your right. I might be oversimplifying this. It IS the starting point, however, and that point was rather simple, at least then. Now? Complex, religious differences has been trumped by political agenda. Globalism and the like, stirring it up even further.

'Europe's reluctance to back the Iranian sanctions only worsens the divide, IMO.

Probably by far the strangest opinion I've read on ATS.

Israel is its own worst enemy. Recently the majority of Middle Eastern nations declared Israel a terrorist state. Not sure how they have a better relationship with their neighbours according to your post?

America succeeded in destabilising the entire Middle Eastern region for ideological reasons and indirectly causing the current refugee crisis in Europe.

I'm always reminded of the following quote:

I see America spreading disaster. I see America as a black curse upon the world. I see a long night settling in and that mushroom which has poisoned the world withering at the roots ~ Henry Miller

originally posted by: [post=23450781]nwtrucker

The bigotry was well in place long before Hitler and the holocaust.

Just a bit A defining moment in Europe's pre Nazi bigotry was not handing over a country for the Jews to live in post WW1. It was a time of Empire's disintegrating in central and eastern Europe and national states emerged from the ashes. Jews should have been granted their own state in Eastern Europe at this time. Europe was Jewish long before it was ever Christian, Jews should have been off offered their own state at this time, they were denied this. Even when incredibly recent arrivals in Europe like the Hungarians were given their own nation state, but the ancient European Jewish community was denied theirs. Total racism in my opinion from the people who drew up the new borders.

Ever since Israel tried to murder everyone on the Liberty to draw the US into war the US should have cut ties with them at the very least.

Not one person who ordered the attack was brought to justice the warcrime.

a reply to: TheJustLlam

That would be due to you not really following the developments in the ME. Otherwise, you'd know it not 'strange', at all.

Nothing stays the same long, apparently. Bone up on it,

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Ever since Israel tried to murder everyone on the Liberty to draw the US into war the US should have cut ties with them at the very least.

Not one person who ordered the attack was brought to justice the warcrime.

That was due to the fact that the instigator was the then President of the U.S.. LBJ. It was a joint false flag event intending to blame Egypt for the attack and take out the Egyptian leader. Saddat(?)

The same LBJ that pulled the same stunt with the PUEBLO in Vietnam.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Na, I just didn't think anyone cares what Israel thinks. Especially Americans or Europeans as neither owes them sh#. It's been perpetually stuck in the stone age with its backwards religion, almost as fanatical as those they oppose. That's why its so strange.

Other than the Terrorist State of Israel I keep track of the Middle East. Especially Syria which the Mossad agents have been working hard to destroy. Unfortunately that blew up in their face.

I don't live in either America, Europe or ME. I must confess I'd be a little disappointed though if Americans continue allow themselves to pulled into Israel's conflicts.

originally posted by: TheJustLlam
a reply to: nwtrucker

Na, I just didn't think anyone cares what Israel thinks. Especially Americans or Europeans as neither owes them sh#. It's been perpetually stuck in the stone age with its backwards religion, almost as fanatical as those they oppose. That's why its so strange.

Other than the Terrorist State of Israel I keep track of the Middle East. Especially Syria which the Mossad agents have been working hard to destroy. Unfortunately that blew up in their face.

I don't live in either America, Europe or ME. I must confess I'd be a little disappointed though if Americans continue allow themselves to pulled into Israel's conflicts.

In the case of Syria, a long time vassal/proxy state of Iran, the U.S. and Israel, now include Saudi Arabia, have a common adversary.

I trust your disappointment will continue.

a reply to: nwtrucker

And what, Israel a proxy state for the US?

I think anti-semitism is growing all over the world not just in Europe or America.

Israel will wAke up one day, isolated, in a very hostile world.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

Just a bit A defining moment in Europe's pre Nazi bigotry was not handing over a country for the Jews to live in post WW1. It was a time of Empire's disintegrating in central and eastern Europe and national states emerged from the ashes. Jews should have been granted their own state in Eastern Europe at this time. Europe was Jewish long before it was ever Christian, Jews should have been off offered their own state at this time, they were denied this. Even when incredibly recent arrivals in Europe like the Hungarians were given their own nation state, but the ancient European Jewish community was denied theirs. Total racism in my opinion from the people who drew up the new borders.

Europe was never Jewish before being Christian. Christianity spread when it was adopted as the official religion of Rome by Constantine. Before this time, Europe was entirely pagan, with differing regions having their own dominant gods.

a reply to: Flavian

Jews were spread out all over Europe BEFORE the Roman Empire took up Christianity. Jewish gravestones have been discovered in ancient Germany, Italy, France and Spain along with Greece, Turkey southern Ukraine received their Jewish populations before the adoption of Christianity. During roman times the population of Europe was 10% Jewish. The Jewish religion pre dates Christianity by thousands of years, Christianity itself is merely a reworking of the ancient religion being one of its off shoots. Jewish Europe certainly existed long long long before Mary gave birth to Mr J

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Having an odd Jewish grave stone here and there is not the same though is it? You certainly can't equate it to a Jewish Europe.

Judaism obviously predates Christianity but it wasn't throughout Europe and it certainly wasn't wide spread. There was a presence in Greece from early 300's BC and not just small numbers but, again, that can't be compared to widespread throughout Europe. And despite their presence in Greece, the vast majority of Greeks were Pagan, believing in the old gods still. This is replicated throughout Europe.

For example, you may find an odd Jewish gravestone in say Germany, but the vast majoirty still worshipped Woden and other gods.

a reply to: Flavian

You will find a massive population early on in southern france but they converted to Christianity, same in Spain but many escaped abroad. Those communities were ancient. Morocco was Jewish and animal before another offshooy the Islamics came in, then they mass converted. Whole regions went through the Jewish phase then converted to Christ and then some of those later to islam esp n arfica and ME plus Balkans. Southern Uktaine Moldova Rumania much of it Jewish, then they went Chrisyian later. Poland too many converts to Catholicism when they were brought the cross. Judaism as you said was vying with other pagan religions pre Christendom but it must be acknowledged that Europe was varingly Jewish along with other minority religions long before it become predominantly painted over as Christian. Even one in six Spanish today even after the massive forced migrations and killing s during Inquisitions many of them can trace descent directly to Jewish. So it must have been much less than 1 in 6 pre that time of Inquisitions and forced conversions. Maybe Spain would have been majority Jews, same with southern Italy, NE Italy, Salonika region of Greece, Black Sea region, southern France, Rhineland region too.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter


Spain (Tartessos) was pagan - they predominantly worshipped Astarte and Melkart (for what little we know). Both of these are off shoots of Phoenician Gods.

Numidia was Berber (and therefore Pagan).

Phoenicia was most certainly Pagan.

Rome was Pagan.

France was Celtic, and therefore Pagan.

Certainly there was movement and trade but that simply doesn't equate to a Jewish Europe. Look at Ostia synagogue, built in the 4th Century AD. Digs have revealed it was built upon an earlier Jewish temple dating to the 1st century AD, indicating a presence. However, this doesn't mean that Rome was practicising Judaism, it simply demonstrates the Roman belief in multi theism - it was a small temple amongst many other small temples.

This is a fun thread by the way, thanks for starting it OP. Nice to have friendly rather than rabid argument!