Creator god or intelligent design, the facts that inform the theory?

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I make no claims based on any faith so I'm not required to provide any evidence. I just challenge those who do make speculative claims based on faith.

LOL! You call that a challenge?! Admit it, you don't have anything to challenge anyone with.

originally posted by: surfer_soul

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: surfer_soul

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: Woodcarver

Unfortunately there are hardcore atheists such as Dawkins who constantly try to push there ideas on the rest of us. I for one take offence at being referred to as Christian because I believe in god. Not everything is a black and white/either or as some would have it.

So you do believe in god? What led you to this position?

I believe that everything at its core is infinite, what I would describe as god is the same thing as infinity or a better way of putting it, that infinity is a property of god.
Mind or intelligence is another property of god, the universe is a property of god, do you see where I’m going with this?

Just as our physical body’s are properties of us but we aren’t the exact same thing as our body’s. We exist as minds that can traverse the physical through will alone. Such as when we imagine the concepts being discussed.

It’s very hard to describe especially when I keep being redirected to some malware site, I’ll leave it at that for now

It seems like you’re choosing that word “Infinite” because it sounds good.

can you demonstrate infinite? Have you ever observed something To be infinite?

The law of thermodynamics basically states that energy can neither be created or destroyed. Therefore it is infinite is not?

Also we have the philosophical paradox where when we ask if something has an ending then what is beyond it? If the answer is a void or nothingness then that too must be infinite in nature.
How can it be otherwise?

I assume you are reffering to the first law of thermodynamics. The law of conservation of energy, which is broken down in two parts. Closed systems, and open systems.

These are very complex formulas and concepts, so i won’t get into the hard math. Although it states that energy can neither be created or destroyed, it clearly also describes how energy and matter can change from one state to others. The end result is usually heat. Which according to the second law of TD, the law of entropy, the formulas predict that all heat will eventually spread out so far that it’s detection will be negligible.

Philosophical paradoxes are not the same as scientific paradoxes, as there are no scientific paradoxes.

Nothingness is a concept that has never been demonstrated. But there is non-being. Where were you before you were born? You were bits of material that your mother ate and used to create your body. But you were not in a state of being before your conception. And you will likewise be in a state of non-being after you die. Nothingness never comes into play on any level.

a reply to: Deetermined
Don't bother with his challenge. All he can said is, "you don't have verified evidence, and I don't have to prove anything because I don't make any claim."

originally posted by: surfer_soul

originally posted by: blackcrowe
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Sorry.

The other thread this one is based on. Reminds the readers how many pages of nothing/no evidence there is, so far.

I thought it was funny.

I think I will convert to atheism then, it’s so much easier when asked about the origins of the universe to sit back and say I don’t know and the burden of proof is on everyone else who doesn’t hold that position.

Then despite getting reasoned arguments for intelligent design and such I just repeat where is the empirical evidence? It requires little if any thinking on my part and I get to walk away feeling all smug because I haven’t been shown scientific proof of something that can’t be verified using the scientific method..

That is actually the best course to take. If someone makes a claim, ask them to demonstrate why that is. If they cannot, then there is no good reason to accept it right?

If you want to be smug, go ahead, but you prob won’t make any friends that way.

You should always be asking yourself why you believe things. It will lead you to research for yourself and then you will understand. Especially if you want to believe as many true things as possible, and avoid accepting false claims as much as possible.

Can you name any other things that you believe on faith instead of reason?

originally posted by: EasternShadow
a reply to: Deetermined
Don't bother with his challenge. All he can said is, "you don't have verified evidence, and I don't have to prove anything because I don't make any claim."

Or, you could dig in and give the most logical and thought provoking comments that you can muster, and then, you will be smarter, and you will understand the arguments and positions in this debate inside and out. Caution though, you will begin to doubt many of the positions that you may hold dear. But you will have good reasons to doubt them if you really read and do the work.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Woodcarver

2) you said the characters could have any level of intelligence. I was going off of that caveat. 

Calling people militant, is not fair. I don’t call people who argue strongly for their faith, militant christians. You are responsible for your own words. When you stoop to such tactics, you will be seen in the same light as those you would call militant yourself. Be the kind of person that you want others to be, and that will be reflected back at you.

Reading from your point of view feels
icky.

But I am gaining a different perspective.

I appreciate this comment from you. I’m happy to converse any time Randy.

My ultimate goal would be to get believers to do the hard work that ultimately proves or possibly disproves the existence of deities. I may not believe the claims, but the majority of people in the world do.

I want everyone to understand the proper methods to use to come to the most truthful explanations as possible. Whatever those may be.

And also to recognize when their arguments are weak or otherwise illogical.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Nobody including physicists have cosmological evidence of original origin.

Agreed.

Nobody has evidence their wife lives them.

I have plenty of evidence supporting claims that people love me, their actions, behaviour towards me, decisions they make which may influence my life etc.
That belief in love from human friends and family is based on experience, which is more than can be said for any gods lol.

Again this isn't true. Some people feel they feel God for various reasons.

Your friends and family can also be explained as mutually beneficial, social contract, or in the case of sociopaths totally manipulative....

Some people take dmt and experience things..

Again there is no proof one way or the other.

Unless you say pray heals or something and then it doesn't. Or I can walk on water and I can't.

When a person claims they can feel god’s love, they must first demonstrate that god exists. And therefore even able to feel.

I can convince you that someone’s wife exists pretty easily, and then by evaluating her actions and her own claims, one can be reasonably convinced that she loves him or not.

We could also hook her up to a brain imaging device and have hard evidence of whether her brain patterns support he claims of love.

a reply to: Woodcarver

And also to recognize when their arguments are weak or otherwise illogical. 

I couldn' t possibly object to that.

originally posted by: EasternShadow
a reply to: Deetermined
Don't bother with his challenge. All he can said is, "you don't have verified evidence, and I don't have to prove anything because I don't make any claim."

Science has evidence on how things work, but can't recreate anything (from scratch).

Science can tell us how the brain controls our body, but it can't tell us how the brain was created. More importantly, it certainly can't tell us why we experience emotions or have the ability for critical thinking.

Science can't create anything in it's original state, it can only play with and alter that which already exists.

Even evolution had to start somewhere, but until science can prove how it originated, they don't have much of an argument as it pertains to creation.

The Bible tells us that man was created from the dust of the earth. Science is finally coming around and proving that humans and animals all share living organisms that exist in soil life, but they have yet to figure out how it all came together. Science is limited. The Creator of the universe is not.

a reply to: Deetermined

The bible cannot be trusted. It is full of illogical advice and false stories.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Or, you could dig in and give the most logical and thought provoking comments that you can muster, and then, you will be smarter, and you will understand the arguments and positions in this debate inside and out. Caution though, you will begin to doubt many of the positions that you may hold dear. But you will have good reasons to doubt them if you really read and do the work.

I already give out energy as possible property of God 's infinity based on scripture and physics laws, but apparently I'm wasting my valuable times. Heat is still energy. Even if it's negliable in detection, does not mean it cease to exist. But meh, I don't care anymore what other's people think.

Also, Just because you don't remember your own birth existence, doesn't mean everyone else forget. I have experience death and life. I have experiences many unexplained phenomenons which I deem scientific nonsense. And I'm not the only one. If you are wise, you should consider there are more than observable materialistic properties exist elsewhere. You don't see atom and gravity with naked eyes, but you don't deny their existence. You observe how active brain's wave can be instantly shut down and life cease to exist, but you don't deny many bacterias still alive eating your gut. You observe we are built by chemical reaction of multi trillion complex living blocks, but you can't deny everything will break down instantly once your brain is dead. But meh, you will experience death yourself, and I wish you could see yourself how your own bacteria begin to eat your flesh.

a reply to: Joecanada11
I don't believe the bible is preserved word of god either. But I don't completely dismissed it as bull# when there are things in the bible confirm much ancient scripture, such as the Vedas who followers don't believe in Godly Jesus and trinity.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You know if I had a goal it was most likely
to show no matter what one believes or
doesn't believe? It's a wonder

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: Deetermined

The bible cannot be trusted. It is full of illogical advice and false stories.

That's a matter of opinion. Now tell us how opinions and personalities were created. It wasn't through science and not every opinion and personality is inherited or learned.

originally posted by: EasternShadow

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Or, you could dig in and give the most logical and thought provoking comments that you can muster, and then, you will be smarter, and you will understand the arguments and positions in this debate inside and out. Caution though, you will begin to doubt many of the positions that you may hold dear. But you will have good reasons to doubt them if you really read and do the work.

I already give out energy as possible property of God 's infinity based on scripture and physics laws, but apparently I'm wasting my valuable times. Heat is still energy. Even if it's negliable in detection, does not mean it cease to exist. But meh, I don't care anymore what other's people think.

Also, Just because you don't remember your own birth existence, doesn't mean everyone else forget. I have experience death and life. I have experiences many unexplained phenomenons which I deem scientific nonsense. And I'm not the only one. If you are wise, you should consider there are more than observable materialistic properties exist elsewhere. You don't see atom and gravity with naked eyes, but you don't deny their existence. You observe how active brain's wave can be instantly shut down and life cease to exist, but you don't deny many bacterias still alive eating your gut. You observe we are built by chemical reaction of multi trillion complex living blocks, but you can't deny everything will break down instantly once your brain is dead. But meh, you will experience death yourself, and I wish you could see yourself how your own bacteria begin to eat your flesh.

why would you want someone to experience such a terrible thing? Do you just want me to suffer in some way? Is that what you wish for other people? Pain and torture? That seems very dark.

In your real honest opinion, is it acceptable to wish such horrible things on people?

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Woodcarver

You know if I had a goal it was most likely
to show no matter what one believes or
doesn't believe? It's a wonder

I’m not sure i follow what you are saying?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
why would you want someone to experience such a terrible thing? Do you just want me to suffer in some way? Is that what you wish for other people? Pain and torture? That seems very dark.

In your real honest opinion, is it acceptable to wish such horrible things on people?

How do you define pain and suffering in materialist way?
You don't believe in abstract things, why should you believe in pain and suffering?

originally posted by: EasternShadow
a reply to: Joecanada11
I don't believe the bible is preserved word of god either. But I don't completely dismissed it as bull# when there are things in the bible confirm much ancient scripture, such as the Vedas who followers don't believe in Godly Jesus and trinity.

Ahh, the vedas.

Some really interesting books with some unimaginable imagery. Are you fluent in them? I’m assuming you are of south asian culture?


The bible is clearly a compiled collection of older tales from earlier cultures. Sumerian, Hindu, and Buddhist to name a few. I am always interested to discuss comparative religion.

originally posted by: EasternShadow

originally posted by: Woodcarver
why would you want someone to experience such a terrible thing? Do you just want me to suffer in some way? Is that what you wish for other people? Pain and torture? That seems very dark.

In your real honest opinion, is it acceptable to wish such horrible things on people?

How do you define pain and suffering in materialist way?
You don't believe in abstract things, why should you believe in pain and suffering?

Why would i not believe in pain and suffering? I don’t consider them abstract at all. They can easily be quantified. We know what can cause it, and what can remedy it, in most cases the cause is readily identified, and the effects measured when compared to other feelings like happiness and contentment. Although our individual likes and dislikes can vary greatly, many of them span the entire human experience. If i hit your hand with a ruler, all observers would agree that this will likely illicit a response of pain. There would be very few who would disagree, but it should always be accepted that there is always the potential for outliers.

a reply to: Woodcarver
I studied everything I need to know about who am I, my existence, my past, my de ja vus, both from scientic studies and theology. I don't limit myself with Christian's dogma. I study other religion as well as their tradition and practice for more than 2 decades. I accept both empirical and mythical datas, knowing that existence can't be defined exclusively to one field of study.