San Francisco to Open Nation's First Supervised Drug Sites

originally posted by: DanDanDat
"How about finding another way to save their lives"

Why? Why are we trying to save their lives? Why is prolonging their misery preferably to letting them die?

Because addiction is a sickness, and we help those that are sick. It's the right thing to do.

And if they can be healed, as they can, then you didn't prolong death, you gave them a new life. It's worth trying.

originally posted by: Kharron

originally posted by: DanDanDat
"How about finding another way to save their lives"

Why? Why are we trying to save their lives? Why is prolonging their misery preferably to letting them die?

Because addiction is a sickness, and we help those that are sick. It's the right thing to do.

And if they can be healed, as they can, then you didn't prolong death, you gave them a new life. It's worth trying.

Why do we assume saving them from death is helping them?

Just like we assume saving the critically I'll from death is the "right thing to do" and bar them from taking their lives?

Why is life, no matter how bleak, always preferable to death?

a reply to: DanDanDat

Because we're human?

I don't know, bud. It's not for everyone but many people worldwide find pleasure in helping others. Some religions even teach it.

originally posted by: Kharron
a reply to: DanDanDat

Because we're human?

I don't know, bud. It's not for everyone but many people worldwide find pleasure in helping others.

"Because we are human" life, no matter how bleak it may be, is always preferable to death?

If I am understanding you correctly than my question is still "why?" ... why is life always preferable to death?

Also, why do you assume prolonging their suffering is helpful? Why do you find pleasure in prolonging this suffering?

a reply to: DanDanDat

Because I don't look at life as suffering?

And if we can help another human being why wouldn't we? Are you being serious?

Here's a story that may illustrate why people help, Dan.

I come from a war worn country in the Balkans. My family and I were caught in the war, my younger brother and I managed to escape after a while and lived in refugee camps in Europe, until years later when the whole family came to the States and became citizens, served etc...

I also come from a family of doctors, they all took the oath, and they all lived by it. During the war my dad was captured for treating the enemy, was held in a basement for days and tortured. He told me this about ten years later.

He was away from his family, he didn't know if he was ever going to see his sons again, but he risked his life in order to save the life of another human, no matter what side of the battle they are on. And not only because he took an oath, but because it's the right thing to do.

Some people just think this way, some people don't -- I don't know how to explain it. But the way my dad treats people inspires me and it's the way I've tried to live.

originally posted by: Kharron
Here's a story that may illustrate why people help, Dan.

I come from a war worn country in the Balkans. My family and I were caught in the war, my younger brother and I managed to escape after a while and lived in refugee camps in Europe, until years later when the whole family came to the States and became citizens, served etc...

I also come from a family of doctors, they all took the oath, and they all lived by it. During the war my dad was captured for treating the enemy, was held in a basement for days and tortured. He told me this about ten years later.

He was away from his family, he didn't know if he was ever going to see his sons again, but he risked his life in order to save the life of another human, no matter what side of the battle they are on. And not only because he took an oath, but because it's the right thing to do.

Some people just think this way, some people don't -- I don't know how to explain it. But the way my dad treats people inspires me and it's the way I've tried to live.

Kharron you seem like a very good person, and your family also seem to be good people. Thank you for being helpful.

.... but I think you do not understand the question I am asking.

I am NOT asking why you think it important to HELP a drug addict. For this question you have explained your position well; its important to always help people because it's the human thing to do and you provided a nice anecdote about how your family chose/choose to help people who need help... but again "why help people?" is not my question.


My question is "why do you consider saving these peoples lives as being a helpful act?". Again not asking why you want to help them ... I'm questioning whether or not saving their lives is the help they need.


Let's take this from another angle; if a person in chronic physical pain decided to commit suicide because they felt death was preferable to life would you stop them? Would you attempt to save their life if you found them dieing on the floor?

Now I realize chronic drug use is not as clear cut as the above example. But it does carry with it the same moral questioning. So befor we put in place a system that aims to keep alive a chronic drug user despite the number of times they may overdose we must first answer the question as to whether or not continually saving their lives is the right or helpful thing to do.

a reply to: DanDanDat

Yeah, it's not the same thing to compare drug addicts with euthanasia but I understand.

To confuse even more, I support euthanasia, not because I support death but because I support choice. I think every person has a right to choose whatever they want to do with their life, as long as it doesn't cause harm to another life.

But this is different, most addicts are not addicts because they are trying to commit suicide, they are addicts because that's how brain chemistry works. But it can be healed and it can be reversed. Besides, there are many more reasons to help people, such as in these clinics -- it protects other people from infectious disease, needles... it prevents or at least drastically reduces transmission of disease. They are saving lives and at the same time protecting the public and improving the community. Isn't that worth it?

a reply to: NorthernLites

oh sweet!

Opium dens! Coming to a neighborhood near you. Hooray!

Round em up, Darwin, round em up nice and tight now

originally posted by: Kharron
a reply to: DanDanDat

Yeah, it's not the same thing to compare drug addicts with euthanasia but I understand.

To confuse even more, I support euthanasia, not because I support death but because I support choice. I think every person has a right to choose whatever they want to do with their life, as long as it doesn't cause harm to another life.

But this is different, most addicts are not addicts because they are trying to commit suicide, they are addicts because that's how brain chemistry works. But it can be healed and it can be reversed. Besides, there are many more reasons to help people, such as in these clinics -- it protects other people from infectious disease, needles... it prevents or at least drastically reduces transmission of disease. They are saving lives and at the same time protecting the public and improving the community. Isn't that worth it?

I can certainly understand the aspect of fighting disease; my internal questioning over this subject started after i learned of NARCAN a few years ago rather than drug use clinics.

But to keep on my line of questing you said:

But this is different, most addicts are not addicts because they are trying to commit suicide, they are addicts because that's how brain chemistry works.

I would agree most addicts are not trying to commit suicide. And they are addicts because that's how their brain works .... but that is not the end of the story.

Many of us are predisposed to having brain chemistry that would cause use to become addicted to drugs ... but not all of us who do have this brain chemistry become addicted... and even than of those who do become addicted not all overdose (or more than once) ... there aee other circumstances along with the drug use that cause these people to hit bottom. For some its simply povitet, others its mental and/or physical pain they can not cope with ... and for most once they reach a state of needing to be saved their lives are not the happy ones the rest of us enjoy. They are suffering and the drug is their saviour.

This not so far away from the chronic pain person who chooses euthanasia as a means to end the pain. That person doesnt WANT to die, they have come to the belief that death as the best choose they have. If they could they would choose to live pain free ... but they can't. They are suffering and death is the best thing for them.

How is that different from a chronic drug user? They are clearly suffering... so why cant death be the best thing for them as well?

Now you might say it comes down to choice; the euthanasia person is making the active choice to kill themselves while the OD person didn't choose to OD.... but didnt they?

I know its not a clear cut, there's a lot of gray here. But the undeniably facts are that they are suffering and they continue to overuse a drug that can kill them...

do we keep saving their life so that they can suffer some more befor once again overusing a drug that can kill them ... too which we will save then again so that they can suffer even more befor almost killing themselves again....

when I think of it this way it sounds like a bad twilight zone episode.

The only thing I can think of to say that death is not the best answer is the idea that maybe they can be helped with their addiction... if I knew I could help the chronic pain person be cured of their pain I'd stop them too from committing suicide... but can that really be done? What are the odds that an saved OD results in mitigation of the addiction and not another overdose?

a reply to: DanDanDat

Lots of good philosophical questions that I don't know an answer to. And I don't want to presume why people choose assisted death, or suicide or why some get addicted and some don't.

But I do know that I would keep saving a drug addict's life until he or she asked me not to. If they gave me a do not resuscitate, I would honor it.

Have a good night.

They should open free liqour stores too. That is a big problem.

originally posted by: NorthernLites

San Francisco now plans to open two supervised injection sites by August, which would likely be followed by several more within the next year. The move is a response to an explosion of public drug use and the dangerous paraphernalia that is often left behind on San Francisco’s streets and sidewalks.

“How about finding another way to save their lives other than offering them their poison?” said Bishop Ron Allen, who heads the International Faith Based Coalition, a drug prevention group in Sacramento that boasts 6,000 members nationwide and opposes supervised injection sites.

City workers collect more than 287,000 used needles each month, however, San Francisco distributes 400,000 new syringes, monthly, in an effort to eliminate the need for sharing used needles, thus, reducing the potential spread of disease.

www.nbcbayarea.com...

When the city sets up a lethal injection site where addicts can shoot up and smoke crack without getting arrested, the police create a buffer zone around it where they refuse to enforce the law and arrest the drug dealers.

That creates a black hole of lawlessness around the facility that attracts addicts from all over the country and creates more addicts faster than we can inject them with Naloxone so they can keep filling the drug dealers pockets.

We are culpable in those fatalities through our harm promotion and our endorsement of lawlessness and organized crime. That is not social justice. It is mass murder.

And your solution is what?

The war n drugs has failed.

Approached like this have shown better more cost effective results.

originally posted by: xuenchen
Sounds like that Democrat bastion is a failed government and social flop.

😃😃💉

Only thing that has failed here is the war on drugs.

I understand giving out needles to reduce the sharing of needles and spread of disease. Giving a place to shoot up to try and reduce the number of infected needles tossed onto the streets.

It just seems odd, they are for the most part I imagine illegal drugs.

What I do find funny though, I have heard of these needle exchange programs for years. Recently my poor little dog was diagnosed with diabetes. I went to the pharmacy with a prescription for insulin and basically a note from the vet as to which needles I had to buy.

Boy they looked at me like some sort of criminal drug user, questioned me, gave me the evil eye... called the vet to confirm.... finally they got me my stuff and put my dog into their computer. I laughed that they give needles to drug addicts but question the guy trying to help out is poor little dog lol

a reply to: NorthernLites

Sounds like a voluntary mkultra program.

a reply to: wlasp

i hear fentanyl is bad bad stuff.

What a nasty liberal hell hole San Fran is. They are correct watch your step if you go there std infected needles everywhere

originally posted by: subfab
a reply to: wlasp

i hear fentanyl is bad bad stuff.

It is never the substance that is the problem, it is the abuse of the substance that is the problem.

a reply to: NorthernLites

I thought Assisted Suicide was Illegal in California ? .....Hmm..........