The Epic Mistake About Manufacturing that's Cost Americans Millions of Jobs

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

sure whatever, make it REALLY expensive for anyone to spend money in the US

that'll drive up foreign investment in American products

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Historically, "counterfeit," "knock offs," etc. were directly equated with horribly poor quality. While some still hold this notion, the reality is really quite troubling. "Chibsons," at least some of them, are really impressive instruments for the money. Counterfeit atomizers for vaping are the same situation. The knock offs are, simply put, good buys.

There used to be a trade off there. The compromise was that you would likely spend more money over time on the cheapo stuff, or deal with things like poor fit, sharp cutting edges, etc.

I think producing our own knock offs is a reasonable course of action, but essentially, a company like Gibson is already doing this under the brand of Epiphone.

I think the key is, like you said, "garage manufacturing." Modern technology has enabled companies to completely decentralized, though I don't know of any that have tried this beyond an increase in tele-conferencing and the rare position that can be done from home.

I think that, to truly succeed here, we need a new novel approach and outlook. Instead, most seem more interested in worrying.

I believe that we should be, as a nation, investing heavily in technologies like multimaterial 3d printers. Nothing is keeping nations like China from doing this either, but that might be rendered moot in the face of the US have a largely self-sufficient manufacturing base. As a sidenote, I think we would yield similar benefits from decentralization our food supply. Leveraging these new technologies is, in my opinion, a substantially better choice than attempting to stop it.

One issue, however, is simply the level of operating costs in a nation like China vs. the US. I can think of ways to offset this, but none require anything less than pretty major changes.

Interestingly, it seems that the Chinese are even more obsessed than we are when it comes to the power of a name brand in the market. I don't think that'll last forever though.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Some areas of manufacturing actually cannot fill their jobs because they are looking for young people to train and are offering good pay and benefits but the gotta get a degree crowd keeps steering kids away from the jobs.

Stupid thing is many of those "manufacturing" jobs are actually tech jobs with incredible job security, since the coding for those automated machines are so different from normal tech jobs the training is all done in house.

Partly the problem, partly true, though. My husband's job is an excellent example of the party true end. He's a desk jockey heading a fairly new department in his company, he helped build it from the ground up. The point is to reduce paper-pushing waste, both in expenses & time, and it has in fact panned out for them & works.

The guy a few steps above him that pioneered the department's concept was instructed to find people with MBAs for the role. He ignored them and pulled my hubs off the production floor & gave him the position instead. They, over the course of ironing out the kinks of it, have hired people with MBAs, but as my husband said rather bluntly to sum up his job for me, it's simple enough that a monkey can do the work. It's just a lot of math all day, & coordinating between departments in the company.
He has snubbed the instructions to hire MBA applicants and has pulled people off machines & trained them for the position on other shifts, and it's worked out well. Like I said, they do have a few MBA holders, but they're the ones pissing and moaning about lower-rung, degreeless people being paid the same as them because they feel the degree is necessary.

It's really not.

It takes about 2 weeks for my husband to train someone in the procedures and whip their math skills into better shape, and they're good to go.

So keeping that in mind, it's a problem of employers wanting degrees for positions that don't really need them. My hubs is a stubborn ol' ass, and keeps bucking the "must have MBA" whining to give people in the lower rungs with tangible potential a change to move up the ladder from within the company instead of hiring outside. Not a lot of companies will let someone get away with that without firing them & sticking to their requirement. THAT is where some of these issues stem from, not colleges.

Good thread. A service based society the size of the US could never exist and thrive. The only way to make it sustain is to deceitfully alter the stastistics and create an inflation that is outside of the currency control, banks and the stock market can do that, but sooner or later, the whole system has to collapse. They twisted the figures and we paid the price.

a reply to: Serdgiam

You ever want to build a company that takes advantage of garage manufacturers and their 3d printers, let me know. I've been kicking around some ideas on the concept. The biggest hurdle, shipping, is a cost that can decrease significantly with greater amounts of parcel.

a reply to: rickymouse

the only problem in the US is the mega wealthy people not paying their employees then thinking they are doing everyone a service by donating some cash to a non profit rather than just paying their employees

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: rickymouse

the only problem in the US is the mega wealthy people not paying their employees then thinking they are doing everyone a service by donating some cash to a non profit rather than just paying their employees

That is a problem, not the only problem.

Years ago people would start small businesses and employ between three and a hundred people. They were good for communities. The people starting them did not get rich, they made a decent living and later on would become a millionaire after twenty years of having the company, much of their wealth was actually in the company. They would sell the business to another then be able to retire. Their workers would make a decent wage, not get rich but they could live decently on the money.

The businessmen have changed now and with big and new businesses starting all over, the businesses go belly up or can't be sold for much. So the businessman has to make more money since chances are that they will not get much from the sale of the business. That means they cannot pay their help as much anymore.

Our whole system is messed up in this country. I know lots of people who own small businesses, most of them just make a living, they do not get rich. Starting a small business to provide a service to the community should be taken as a good thing by the business owner. They provide jobs to the community. Nowadays people are buying everything online, that means no jobs for the community. To save a few bucks they jeopardize employment for their fellow citizens in the community. That is not the way a service oriented economy is supposed to work. I see that our future is bleak, we are destined to become a third world country with only five percent of the people in the country ever gaining wealth.

That is my prediction of the future if someone does not set this country on the right path.

originally posted by: TXRabbit
2 - Ridiculous expectations in the US for employment (professional sector). Jobs stay unfilled for many months simply because the expectations are set so high, the number of qualified candidates is nil. My career field is IT (programming) and during times that I've been job hunting, everybody wants a 4 year degree. Everybody wants 2+ years of experience in at least 4 disciplines and technologies and nobody wants to pay the market-rate.

What happens then is the industries (again, I only know IT. Not sure if others follow the same practices) pressure the Gov to open up the number of worker-visas (H1-B) or relax any restrictions on off-shoring work. Cheaper rates are paid for tasks that US workers are available to handle and resourcing companies are happy. Most of this offshoring winds up in India, Russia and China.

Software engineering is not IT work. Any company who thinks it is, should be avoided. The reason, is that IT all too often has the perception of being the help desk guy who doesn't actually know anything beyond how to plug a mouse into a USB port.

I've gone on the rant enough times about the hiring practices of that sector. Needless to say, it needs a lot of work, but that's true of just about all technology. Hell, Excel is easily the most important skill someone can have in a business environment, but well over half the people hired to use Excel all day cannot do basic things like set up calculated cells or conditional formatting.

originally posted by: TXRabbit
2 - Ridiculous expectations in the US for employment (professional sector). Jobs stay unfilled for many months simply because the expectations are set so high, the number of qualified candidates is nil. My career field is IT (programming) and during times that I've been job hunting, everybody wants a 4 year degree. Everybody wants 2+ years of experience in at least 4 disciplines and technologies and nobody wants to pay the market-rate.

I don't think this part is intentional, I think it's due to incompetence. Companies want to hire people who can make their products and earn them a profit. It is not in a companies best interest, to have open positions go unfilled for months or years at a time. The reason they do, is because the companies have an idea, but those in the hiring pipeline don't actually know what is required in order to take their idea and make it a reality.

If you're a programmer, you've almost certainly run into "that guy" at a party, get together, or whatever who says he has a fantastic idea for an app, wants you to build it, and that he'll give you a small equity stake for doing so. That guy is the guy who is also in the hiring pipeline at the companies looking for engineers. All the ideas in the world, zero ability to make them happen, and they're so clueless that they don't even know how to look for people who know what to look for.

originally posted by: stormcell
#2 is the same in the UK. Companies advertise for a software engineer with at least two years experience with each of a number of different techical skills (C++, C#, OpenCV, OpenGL, Python, Java, Windows). Then when you get to the interview, you find out they are really looking for a project manager, and you won't actually be getting to do any of the programming work. But they will still pay you the salary of a software engineer. And even if they do offer you the position you'll find yourself bumped and nudged between these different areas.

It's something of a meme in the field. Interestingly, my experience has been that tech companies are the worst at this because they cargo cult Google and Facebook and don't actually evaluate their unique needs. It feels like the non tech companies are a bit more open in who they hire.

A friend of mine is a project manager, and he's actually facing the inverse of what you're saying right now. He's got a pretty strong resume and work history, but he's not really a technical type anymore, he knows the basics of logic loops and that's about it (early in his career he did some simple dev work). The companies he's been interviewing with lately keep hitting him up for technical skills rather than project management skills.

It's the same sort of issue where it's just assumed everyone on a team knows how to do everything.

I heard that APPLE is frustrated because people are keeping their I-Phones longer, which is causing demand to decrease. I'm not an I-phone owner, so I have no idea what's behind that.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Serdgiam

You ever want to build a company that takes advantage of garage manufacturers and their 3d printers, let me know. I've been kicking around some ideas on the concept. The biggest hurdle, shipping, is a cost that can decrease significantly with greater amounts of parcel.

Actually, the biggest shipping hurdle can be handled through the electronic transfer of information. Find regional 3d printers, build your designs, then print them locally and use local delivery only without having to ship thousands of miles.

A few of the larger companies that crowd source 3d printed objects such as jewelery have begun doing this. They have print shops in each major city, which comprises the bulk of their sales.

originally posted by: carewemust
I heard that APPLE is frustrated because people are keeping their I-Phones longer, which is causing demand to decrease. I'm not an I-phone owner, so I have no idea what's behind that.

The hardware isn't getting better at the same rate, this means older devices take longer to obsolete.

It doesn't help matters much that Apples last few products have come in below expected specs (see the not getting better part), and that there's a huge market out there now for alternative devices at a fraction of the price.

a reply to: Aazadan

Thank-you. I still find it fascinating that my wife pays $700+ dollars for her I-phone every 3 years or so, and none of them "blink" to let her know that a call was missed, or that there's a text or voicemail waiting. I've been Android forever and couldn't imagine not having that external notification.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Aazadan

Thank-you. I still find it fascinating that my wife pays $700+ dollars for her I-phone every 3 years or so, and none of them "blink" to let her know that a call was missed, or that there's a text or voicemail waiting. I've been Android forever and couldn't imagine not having that external notification.

I'm not a fan of smartphones in general, but work does provide me with a fairly new one. I've got an iPhone X right now, it alerts me to missed calls. The lockscreen pops up with a call log as soon as the screen becomes active. It's not a feature I set, so it's on by default. I've also got a 5 year old android phone, it has the little LED to blink whenever there's a notification, but I don't check my voicemail so the feature is fairly useless to me as there's always a notification.

how can someone like me NOT worry about this type of discussion? an above poster said that the situation is "bleak". and after reading all of this, combined with some of my own insights, i too think that we are heading for some rough times in our future.

i am looking for work currently... have been unemployed for quite a long time. i am not afraid of work. i just feel overwhelmed by these things and the overwhelm is itself causing a lot of problems for me.

thanks for the thread. it is always good to see real discussion on the boards these days and i value everyone's contributions here.

originally posted by: tgidkp
how can someone like me NOT worry about this type of discussion? an above poster said that the situation is "bleak". and after reading all of this, combined with some of my own insights, i too think that we are heading for some rough times in our future.

i am looking for work currently... have been unemployed for quite a long time. i am not afraid of work. i just feel overwhelmed by these things and the overwhelm is itself causing a lot of problems for me.

thanks for the thread. it is always good to see real discussion on the boards these days and i value everyone's contributions here.

Problem with this doom and gloom article is removing large manufacturing sector to prove a point. Large amounts of US manufacturing shifted to a different industry to meet world demand while industries that have massive competition world wide declined. But the work force didn't switch to the new industry for a number of reasons. Location and training being the big 2. The new factories are not located the same places as old factories. New jobs need different skill sets from the old factories.

Also automation isnt a myth like the article tries to make out. It really does take less people to make things these days. It also depends on the type of manufacturing. Some sectors will use less people then others.

originally posted by: UKTruth
There is only one thing that you can rely on economists for - being incorrect. It's an utterly useless profession usually populated by people who have zero idea about life.

As far as manufacturing in the USA goes, here's my take (which could, of course, be completely wrong).

It takes skill and/or quality machine design and manufacture to make quality products. Consumers have, however , been weened onto cheap sh*t from China that lasts less than half the time. It's a race to the bottom in product quality terms.
If Western consumers woke up and rejected the false economy of cheap prices and regular replacement cycles to get the latest shiny (cheaply made) widget, they could once again learn to demand quality and keep their purchases for years on end. In the long run it would actually be cheaper. Countries like China can't compete with quality made goods. They rely on the "must have the newest thing now mentality" of Westerners.

There is really no value anymore - hence Western manufacturing companies have to compete against cheap sh*t and they simply can't do it.

My view is to not only take a nationalist view on products, but to take a local view also. I buy as much as I can from local, British, companies (which, unfortunately, is far less than I want to).

And that's why we have austerity measures. To stop money being exported to China and force people to buy cheap crap. Everyone knows that the lifetime of an item depends on how much you pay for it. They would have to pay £1000 for a washing machine that lasts 10 years, or £200 for one that lasts two years. But the electronics, sensors and software are being updated every six months with new wash cycles, programs and load balancing.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I dont think it was a mistake at all. I reckon, from what ive read that it was a very deliberate decision to ship American jobs off to china.

From what I read and what Ive read supports this, is that Agenda 21 or 30 whatever it is now, is all part of the NWO.

The role of agenda 21 or 30 whatever it is, is to even up the standard of living right throughout the world. This means the living standards of the 2nd and 3rd countries has to raised and the living standards of the 1st world countries has to be reduced and so they will meet in the middle.

Exporting jobs from the US to China, was a strategy employed to bring American standards down and raise China's up.

According to video I watched on it in the last year to so, it seems the skill base for some key industries has has now shrunk below the critical mass (skilled workers) of numbers needed to rebuild American Industrial capacity.

Not long a go I watched a doco on how badly the new Dreamliner was being built. A whistleblower from the factory floor was fitted with a recorder and it recorded a number of technicians building the plane; saying they themselves would never fly in it themselves.

Perhaps this is sign of a lack of skills in management or a lack of trade skills among the available workforce in the industry and so things are not done properly.

For example - each can of the plane has an aluminum ring around the circumference of the plane, in which holes are drilled to bolt the cans together. However when putting the cans together, some holes in some rings did not match up so they had to ream the holes out to get the bolt through the hole and in some cases they had to re-drill the hole altogether.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
I know many are against protectionist measures (in theory), but when you're competing with societies where 3 and sometimes 4 generations live in the same household, and can exist for centuries on less than a dollar a day, you have to take some protective measures.

A good start would be to increase tariffs on finished imported goods (with some minor exceptions) and sub-assembly's, and increase export tariffs on raw materials, especially metals.

Smoot-Hawley demonstrated that is not a long term solution and can actually exacerbate the problem.