UK Authorities Crack Down On Nazi Dogs And Angry Drivers While Forcing Parents To Watch Baby Die

originally posted by: angelchemuel
So Alfie is still alive 48 hours after his life support was switched off that Dr's under oath claimed he would be dead in minutes.

Can you link me the court report where the Dr says that?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

Not true. Italy is offering time, compassion, and hope

He has received compassion and time. Offering hope is cruel.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: eletheia

No link sorry, just going by stuff I've read. Are you saying he'll still receive nourishment, oxygen, and pain relief at Liverpool then?
If so I see no need to go to Italy, but I support the rights of the parents to choose the EU health provider.

The judge ordered all palliative care options be explored. It's an interesting take on the freedom of movement angle, I'd assumed that because no alternatives are being offered and no proven treatment that it meets the 'unnecessary' criteria in the HRA 98 outweighing freedom of movement but haven't seen it actually discussed in court.

Let me just wade in on this for a second because the ignorance being displayed in the article the OP has linked to regarding Alfie Evans is unreal.

Firstly it is not the government who have refused to allow the parents to take their child to Italy it is the courts based on the testimony of medical professionals who believe it would not be in the Childs best interests. Now you can get pissed at the doctors all you want about that but at least direct any anger you may feel towards the right folks. On saying that however I personally believe that the relationship we have in the UK between our medical professionals and in America is totally different that as such I personally would trust that the doctors are not simply making these decisions to watch a child die or to go on some kind of power trip. Actually on this point I would recommend any UK members who doubt this to watch the BBC documentary series "Hospital" as there is one episode which follows the work of the critical care paediatricians and the amazing work they do.

Now the second huge point of ignorance in the article relates to the protests.

Those protesters are abusing staff, I was reading about how some staff have been reporting that as they have left work they have been met with shouts of "Baby Killer" and this kind of abuse towards the staff at that hospital is rife on social media. The staff do not deserve that kind of abuse.

Furthermore regarding attempts of the protesters to enter the hospital well to me that speaks volumes to the kind of people who are attending these protests. Think about that for a second, according to the article they were basically going to run into a paediatric intensive care unit full of some of the sickest kids in the country and start causing massive amounts of disruption. In my view that perfectly illustrates that these protesters are only interested in appearing to be champions on the moral high ground for some social media prestige, they are doing this for likes, not for the kids because if they were they would never even attempt to enter into that hospital.

It is a horrible situation but unfortunately sometimes kids die and there is nothing that can be done.

We had this same situation last year with Charlie Gard who also died.

Now sure I would be the first to say lets hope for a miracle, but the sad truth is that this beautiful little boy will die because of the extent of his brain damage, I hope I am wrong but it might not be tomorrow or even next week but pretty soon this horrible disease he has will kill him.

a reply to: Grambler

Sadly the voices of many remain silent in the UK, they are spineless... here's a few more you didn't list. 120,000 Sick and Disabled premature deaths since 2010, 10,000 premature deaths above average in the first 2 months of this year, due directly to government policy, Politicians Money Laundering, Election Tampering(Cambridge Analytica, Brexit and the US Elections) and Fraud, Making up Chemical and Nerve Agent attacks, e.g Skripal Aerosol Nerve attack(FYI, patent for Novachok or BZ dispersal units are in US). Our country has been overrun Politically by the Depopulationists, the usual suspects... and it seems the dumbing process has been a success. Ironic when we discussed this Dumbing Down Conspiracy many years ago we were labelled as tin foil hat wearing nutters... looking at the inaction of the British People today I can't help but feel vindicated somewhat.

originally posted by: FatherLukeDuke
He has received compassion and time. Offering hope is cruel.

You get a better quality of prayer in a Catholic hospital next to the Vatican.

There is a need to move from a focus on keeping this child alive artificially, to a stage where his end of life is managed compassionately and with dignity. That's what this is all about. Some people think that keeping someone alive is the only role of healthcare professionals, even when doing so is not in the best interests of the patient.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: FatherLukeDuke
He has received compassion and time. Offering hope is cruel.

You get a better quality of prayer in a Catholic hospital next to the Vatican.

There is a need to move from a focus on keeping this child alive artificially, to a stage where his end of life is managed compassionately and with dignity. That's what this is all about. Some people think that keeping someone alive is the only role of healthcare professionals, even when doing so is not in the best interests of the patient.

I have a lot of thoughts on this.

I personally think that our relationship with death and dying in the west is totally messed up. Now granted nobody wants a young person to die, but I think the medical profession has this extreme obsession with preventing death rather than promoting a dignified and comfortable death that is both compassionate and right. Death is inevitable and sadly sometimes it is even a inevitability with young children and while we should always do everything we can do to preserve life there comes a point where quality of live becomes so low and survivability such a low chance that we should be focusing on promoting a dignified and compassionate death. I think that all too often with all ages that is forgotten unless you work in palliative care and even then I don't think its always done as well as it could be.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Furthermore regarding attempts of the protesters to enter the hospital well to me that speaks volumes to the kind of people who are attending these protests. Think about that for a second, according to the article they were basically going to run into a paediatric intensive care unit full of some of the sickest kids in the country and start causing massive amounts of disruption. In my view that perfectly illustrates that these protesters are only interested in appearing to be champions on the moral high ground for some social media prestige, they are doing this for likes, not for the kids because if they were they would never even attempt to enter into that hospital.

Very well said


Sad as it is for Alfie Evans what makes these people regard him as any more

deserving of consideration than any other of these very sick children.

a reply to: oldcarpy

handy to know that's all , you know in case I upload a video of my chugs goose stepping or handing out DPRK propaganda!

a reply to: sapien82


My advice is - don't. My bill for this advice will follow.

a reply to: eletheia

Its not really fair to blame the victims of cold and callous state over reach when they protest their victimization.

a reply to: oldcarpy

my apathy for said bill will follow !

but I appreciate the advice all the same.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: eletheia

Its not really fair to blame the victims of cold and callous state over reach when they protest their victimization.

By *victims* i presume you mean *rent a mob* .....because thats precisely what

they are.

A silent vigil type protest would have more meaning and better long term results

than the *rent a mob* mentality which have only one object disruption, and in this

case violence!! In any event are ANY of them privy to the FULL FACTS of the case?


They could start up a petition>>>>To create a petition. Only British citizens and UK

residents can create or sign a petition. You get 5 people to support your petition ...

At 100,000 signatures your petition will be considered for a debate in Parliament.

But NO ... they prefer rable rousing.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: ScepticScot

Yes saw that case

The court did not say that the family was not allowed to get outside treatment


In fact they did just that

The court ruled the hospital was allowe to take the child off of life support

I am fine with that

The family didn’t have enough time or resources to move the child to another facility again

But no where in this case did the court say the familiy could not take the child in their own dime or in a charity or another hospitals dime

So it's OK to let a child die for lack of money but not based on expert medical opinion?

Its not an either or situation as you are painting it.

The case you outlined also had medical experts weigh in.

The issue is that there is a reasonable argument to be had that the state should not be forced to pay for a treatment that most likely will have no effect

However, the state should not be able to force someone who wants to be able to pay for that treatment out of their own pocket or through someone else willingly paying for it to not get the treatment.

You believe this, even if it isn't in the best interest of the patient, who is unable to request either way?

The only reason you know about this at all is that it has made such big headlines due to the way it has all been protested etc. but as others have said, this happens regularly. Doctors in the UK have a duty of care to not provide "healthcare" that would be deemed experimental or unlikely to help or could possibly make things worse.

The parents have already tried to take the hospital to court for murder. What would they do if the hospital had decided to release Alfie into care elsewhere and he had died on the way or suffered serious consequences.

Also, as has repeatedly been mentioned, Alfie is in fact allowed home.

a reply to: eletheia

"The full facts" seems like state apology to me.

The facts i know seem to be something along these lines: parents have found alternative treatment at an approved EU hospital, but non medical judges are taking the words of doctors who have already been wrong (they said he'd die in a few minutes while under oath). Meanwhile, the parents (who seem to be the only champion for this young man in this entire story) are being vilified for fighting government over reach.

To me (and many) the solution seems simple: let the parents take their son to Italy, instead of trying to starve him to death. It seems like at this point its more about being right, than about Alfie.

If it were me, "violence" wouldn't not be a suitable word to describe my behavior. I will die fighting for my children.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: Grambler


I find it horrifying that you'd let a child die because of monetary concerns in American, but complain that the courts here in Britain have intervened on behalf of Doctors and medical experts to let this poor child die with some dignity, because his health long term will only get worse.
Also the fact that the parents will not call for calm around Alder Hey Hospital and allow other parents with sick and ill children to have some privacy during their traumatic time is very showing.

Yes of course you find that horrifying.

You are a good little socialist.

The state should be forced to pay for everything, and also have the power to tell people they may not pay for things on their own.

I do not want to see a child die do to lack of money and that is no where near the argument i am making. My argument is about government forcing people to not be allowed to spend their own money on treatments.

The state has a reasonable argument to make that if they are paying for treatment, they have a right to end that treatment if they deem it worthless. You think the state should be able to go a step further and say and also the family are forced not to pay for the childs treatment on their own.

Honestly this thread is becoming one of the best examples of why socialists solutions and sate control of things like health care is an absolute disaster, so I thank you all for that.

Well, we do have one of the absolute best health care systems in the world and it's free to boot.

Beat that!

a reply to: eletheia

Something else to consider: you are suggesting they use remediation through government. The same purse strings that seem to want their child dead.

I'd likely not find much comfort in that. And I'd "rabble rouse" to get attention for my cause. To me, the idea that i'd follow the rules of grievance that the same government wanting to kill my child suggests is preposterous. Were i alfie's father, this may be the kind of thing that 'sets me off', and creates a much bigger problem down the road.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: eletheia

"The full facts" seems like state apology to me.

The facts i know seem to be something along these lines: parents have found alternative treatment at an approved EU hospital, but non medical judges are taking the words of doctors who have already been wrong (they said he'd die in a few minutes while under oath). Meanwhile, the parents (who seem to be the only champion for this young man in this entire story) are being vilified for fighting government over reach.

To me (and many) the solution seems simple: let the parents take their son to Italy, instead of trying to starve him to death. It seems like at this point its more about being right, than about Alfie.

If it were me, "violence" wouldn't not be a suitable word to describe my behavior. I will die fighting for my children.

There is no alternative treatment. The options in Italy are the exact same as the options in the UK.

The only question is it in his interest to continue treatment or not. The courts after listening to the evidence of the multiple doctors who examined him, including doctors from the Italian hospital, concluded it wasn't.

But of course people reading about it online know better...

originally posted by: Dem0nc1eaner

Well, we do have one of the absolute best health care systems in the world and it's free to boot.

Beat that!

as long as you aren't too sick...at which point you may be starved to death because some doctors believe its not worth feeding you anymore.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan


There is no treatment in Italy or anywhere else that will help this poor child.

It is sad to see some of our friends across the Pond using this sad case as a political football to argue against state funded healthcare, particularly when it is clear that most of them have no clue what they are talking about.