Why do we continue to suffer Original Sin, if Jesus redeemed us on the Cross?

originally posted by: SR1TX

originally posted by: nightbringr

originally posted by: SR1TX
Suffering is a construct of the mind.

You chose it, it's not something automatic.

You 'choose' to suffer?

Tell that to those born into warfare, abuse and poverty.

Warfare has been happening since the dawn of man. Do not be troubled that mankind has yet to figure out how to stop doing it.

Abuse - Again, a choice to let happen

Poverty - A choice

A child 'chooses' to have his or her abusive parents beat or sexually assault them? People choose to be born into war torn countries?

You feeling ok?

a reply to: nightbringr

I have always wondered about people who freely choose to worship a 'debt' god. It is like they love their servitude because then they will get to abandon self accountability.

The original sin didn't impose upon us an everlasting debt, it simply removed our immortality. I think it was a great trade: wisdom for death.


Genesis 2:16-17 - And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."


Genesis 3:1-6 - Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God say, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?" 2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" 4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.


But leave it to MAN to corrupt this wonderful trade deal in their version of controlling the sheep.

originally posted by: SR1TX
Who told you to live in Tornado Alley?

No one told us it WAS a tornado alley. Plus, this weather hasn't been the norm as of late.

Very good question.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Our sin reminds us daily of why we NEED God so we will remain close to Him until we can all live together in perfection.

a reply to: 2012newstart

The question of the Suffering is one of the biggest unresolved questions in theology. No matter the Church, or even the Religion, it is not explained satisfactory why should we suffer almost all our lives, if we couldn't technically commit so many sins for so short lifespan. Let alone, we start suffering in childhood age when we are still inoocent.

The Creator is only responsible for two human beings and no more. All the rest of the human race are the responsibility of their own desires. God had no part in who would contaminate the gene pool of the human race by their disobedience of the laws that God had presented to them. All of the discomforts of life have come down to the human race through total disrespect and rebellion of the procreation of choice to do so. No one can blame the Creator for what they have done to themselves.

This very same crutch has been used by almost every person sometime in their life. Suffering is caused by disobedience to the Creator by the creation and this extends into all animal and fowl life. Not one can say that they have not contributed to their own demise.

Where is the role of Jesus Christ, when His precious death on the cross covered the original sin and redeemed us for eternal life? If so, why do we see continuation of the sinful nature of baptised persons, regardless of how often they practice the Christian rites? Yes there is ecclesiastical explanation(s) as good as the one with the apple, repeated over and over again thru centuries by the brightest minds of Christian thought.

Jesus is not obligated to die a trillion deaths to please a disobedient creation. His mission was to present an escape from annihilation through grace. By choice the rest is left to the creation. Rituals nor repetitive cantors will replace remission of sin.

originally posted by: abeverage
Yet here I sit (According to Abrahamic religions ) being left holding the bag fully in sin and accountable in a "Fallen World" because of our progenitors Adam & Eve...

Not going to argue religion right or wrong or that is because of ______ dogma...

instead I want to ask anyone of their faith have you even considered this?

Many ATSers know I like to question religion's dogma. As a matter of fact, I did question this same very things in one or two older threads.

originally posted by: abeverage
It is ridiculous logic and if your answer is well we cannot know the mind of God yet are created in god's image seriously where does this even make sense?

"We cannot know the mind of God" is no excuse to be ignorant. Ignorant has no place in ATS.

originally posted by: abeverage
In our lives and laws we are not held responsible for someone else transgressions yet we are for original sin?

Few weeks ago, I was frustrated by the concept of Original Sin. Like you, I think it was irresponsible for God to blame Adam's disobediance on me and make me suffer. Like you, I could not accept this as logical.

But, I never stop looking for the light of god, to show me the path and ask what have I done to receive this injustice. I asked for mercy and forgiveness, that my imperfection as human wouldn't shun me from the wisdom I seek through HIM.

We suffer because we have the knowledge of god. We know what is good and what is evil. We know we can make choices. We also know we can cause other to suffer directly or indirectly by our own choices. On the other hand, we also know we will suffer if other people make the same choices to be nasty and cause us harm.

Some people are mature enough to consider the consequences of being "good" or "evil". Even then, sometime those consequences can lead to wrong way and make us evil. It happens due to our human limited insight that we are simply not as omniscient and omnipotent as God to wield such wisdom. There are things that we cannot control. Nevertheless it was still due to our choices.

Natural disaster happens because of how the planet works through life essential elements such as heat, air, pressure, gravity, teutonic plate movement etc.. It is not our choice for it to happen, but we have to understand natural disaster simply happen because it must. It is simply the law of physics. The only choice we can do is being vigilant all the time.

On the other hand, there are some people who are immature and are simply driven by "desire" and "thought" to being nasty, irresponsible, inconsiderate and sadists. These are the people who make us suffer as a result of their choices. We can still choose either to avoid this type of people or we can report to authority or use violence resolution etc..The choice may not be popular, but it is a choice.

Everything is about choice and consequrences. If we don't make choice, then other people will make the choice for us. If a soldier does not kill the enemy in gunshots, then he will be killed by the enemy. Even if the soldier run away to avoid killing, it is still a choice. It doesn't always has to be good choice.

Life is cruel, I know, but it is worthy trade to have the wisdom of god. I'm happy this "original sin" has lead me to know that there is always a choice to be a good person , even if others don't. If Adam did not eat the forbidden fruit aoens ago, we may still be running naked like babies in Eden, pure and innocent but lacking the wisdom to make the right choices...

Being "the image of god" is about making the right choice with responsibility. Otherwise, we are no better than animals or plants.

I hope knowing good and evil will bring happy life to you.

a reply to: SR1TX

"Suffering is a construct of the mind. " Ok if that is so, so is everything else and we don't need anyone to manufacture anything, all we have to do is construct it in our minds and it will be.

So take some brass and Iron and some paints and put it all in a box. Then you go to your state of construct of your mind and construct a watch when you are done with your construct of the mind the watch will be fully assembled in the box ready to wear and timed perfectly.

Good luck with that.

a reply to: Lagomorphe

the AKJV Bible has no copyrights it should be available for free. But men change what they doubt or don't beleive it says and create a new version, then add their sects cross references to teach their private interpretations, and some maps to the back and a little preface and you can make money off their version of Scriptures.

Since 1880's almost 400 different versions of the Bible have been created. And yet all of them combined used aroud the word for over 100 years have not reached 10% of the people saved using the AKJV. And despite all the versions that are still available today, the AKJV still is the #1 most sold bible in the world.

a reply to: ClovenSky

a debt god?

The True and Living God has paid the debt of sin for all mankind. It is their choice to believe he did so through Christ and Accept that work of the cross for them or to reject it.

Once save there is no debt. We owe him nothing. It is his purpose to save us but we must be given the choice to choose to be saved or not.

Anybody who teaches that we are indebted to God for what he has done is teaching a false doctrine to enslave people to get money out of them.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

originally posted by: 2012newstart
a reply to: Awen24

I agree with that.

But...how one could explain that a child is born with inherited illness without ever having the chance to sin?

That could be transferred to many other people, who in their whole life couldn't do the number and severity of sins corresponding to the punishment they suffer. Even if they'd want it, and many people do not want to commit grave sins, rather live a good christian life.

Sure there are also those whose sins are much bigger and for whom the punishment in this life is not enough and ultimately would deserve the pains of afterlife without God, i.e. the hell. For their salvation the only hope is God's mercy.

But why all of us are required to suffer so much all our life, is beyond my comprehension. That's why I go back to that tree in the garden, that obviously we were not told the whole truth of it.

There are a few things here that I'd like to address.
First, you need to understand the nature of sin. Romans talks about sin in multiple different contexts, and each has a different affect on man.

The first is sin (broadly). This isn't talking about specific sins (plural), but the existence of sin itself as a 'thing'. This basically means that when Adam broke the single law given in the garden, he introduced corruption into the system of this world - an act that affects us all. This explains your example - suffering even in the very young (or in vitro even). They suffer the effects of sin (as do we all) as a result of Adam having broken God's law. You see, Adam's sin corrupted the entire natural order.
We often have this assumption that what is natural is good. That's not what the Bible describes. Nature itself is broken and fallen, "in bondage to decay", Romans says, and is "awaiting its redemption" jut as we are.

Now, you might question how it's fair that we suffer this global corruption as a result of Adam's sin.

Well, Romans talks about the fact that we have no right to complain on this front, because we're all sinners. We inherit the effects of Adam's sin - even in our own bodies - but we still have choice... and yet nonetheless, here we are. All lawbreakers. In effect, 'even if this weren't true, you would make it true'. This is sin in the second context - individual acts that contravene God's law.

So we get that there's a standard - people most often refer to the 10 commandments when talking about law and sin, but is that all? I'd suggest the answer is no.

This leads me to the third type of sin. God created Adam and Eve as a perfect reflection of Himself. Not identical, mind you - we were still flesh and bone - but we reflected Him in exactly the manner that He determined we should. When Adam sinned, that changed. Adam was created to be God's representative here on earth, and yet now, suddenly, with the entry of sin, he came to represent something else - something broken and corrupt. So sin in this sense is failure to accurately represent the character of God in our roles as overseers of the earth.

Any one of these types of sin, and any single act of sin, is deserving of death ("the wages of sin is death", Romans 6:26). So it's not about who sins more, or who sins less - but the fact that we're all sinners, all broken, all cursed, all cut off from God. Isaiah says "your sins have separated you from God", and so we are. But later, He says, "God saw that there was no redeemer, and was astonished - so His own arm worked salvation for Him".

See, that's the beauty of the gospel.
We, as lawbreakers, deserve death under the law. More than that, there's no provision made in the law for us to change that (the law is given to show us our sin, not to save). And so God, seeing our helplessness, determined a path of salvation at His own cost, apart from the law ("for while we were still sinners, Christ died for us").
This means that the work has been accomplished to reunite man and God. But God's plan is greater than mere redemption (if that were even possible!), it's total restoration and even GLORIFICATION. Romans talks about this too. In Christ, God and man have a relationship restored (now). But we also have a future date wherein we'll be physically restored too (given new bodies, at the rapture and/or at the resurrection), and then another future date wherein we'll be systemically restored - that is, placed back atop a created order - one that is without sin and destruction and death and decay.

There's so much more that can be said about these things, but I've talked enough.
If you'd like to know more, feel free to send me a message and I can talk you through it, or point you in the direction of those who have perhaps written more eloquently than I have on the matter.

actually i do not question the original sin, rather its explanation that is unsatisfactory to say the least. May be genetic change by someone (the snake? evil aliens?) is the best answer we could have for now.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Don't believe everything you read in Paul's doctrine

The Christian doctrine of original sin was introduced by Irenaeus in the second century. It is not a belief in Judaism.

The garden of eden is within us. The forbidden fruit in the garden of eden is the sensual pleasures we receive in the material world. It uses and blocks the light from entering our vessel. So if we continue lusting after the material joys in this physical world we will surely die (reincarnation).

Forget the wishy-washy "original sin" and "suffering" bullhockey, let's get to the meat of actual suffering no one can control BUT this oh-so-magnificent god people adore so much -- excruciating and/ or debilitating diseases & disorders kids have to suffer through. Cancers, Cystic Fibrosis, Muscular Dystrophy, Brittle Bone Disease, the rarer & severe allergies (as in stuff like the Sunlight allergy a few very unfortunate kids deal with) Epilepsy, Seizure disorders. I could go on, but I think you get the point. Kids supposedly haven't sinned yet, but they get smacked with the Loving God hand pretty hard in the health department. Wonderful dude he is to torment children with such horrible diseases & disorders despite doing nothing to earn the suffering yet.

a reply to: glend

the Garden East in Eden, Eden was a name God called earth was located along the end of the Euphrates River near the Persian gulf, the Tigris or the Hiddekel runs up into Iran and the other two other pre-flood original rivers, no longer flowing go west and south from there towards Egypt and Ethiopia.

It is located at one of the corners of the land promised to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. It extends from the Euphrates River to the Mediterranean sea, from Turkey to the river of Egypt also called the Havilah in pre-flood times, now only a wadi located about where Moses crossed the Red Sea, near the well of seven palms.

Making Eden a spiritual state makes the scriptures useless and false.

The Forbidden Tree of which they were not to eat the fruit thereof is the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Is the conscious understanding of freewill, to choose the good or the evil things and to know the difference, of which every tribe in the world knows to be true. In every society even tribal Adultery was known in their hearts to be wrong. Two unsaved kings long before the Law of Moses was written, show they knew this to be true in the Bible.

To make the fruit and not the tree to source of sensual pleasures is to make a wicked god and again to corrupt the scriptures and make them lie.

The true and Living God would not hold back the pleasures of sex between the man and his wife that would be cruel. Even animals show they have pleasure in the act of intercourse. They didn't live long enough to experience that pleasure before they sinned. On the eight day when she began to hunger and the SERPENT, not a snake, tempted her with fruit she was not to eat of, she being tempted fell into transgression. Then Adam sinned willfully by choosing to disobey the Lord concerning the tree and its fruit. He chose his love for his wife over his love for the lord. He chose evil over good, and that choice is still available to men today. The Serpent who already rejected God was further cursed to eat of the dust of the ground. Satan eats up men for they are made of the dust of the ground. (A spiritual truth you missed.)

You can do nothing but lust, kill, lie, cheat, steal even some after salvation in Christ still do those things for they live in their flesh and not being led of the Spirit to produce good fruit.

Oh and you missed the whole deal about the fruit.

originally posted by: Nyiah
Kids supposedly haven't sinned yet, but they get smacked with the Loving God hand pretty hard in the health department. Wonderful dude he is to torment children with such horrible diseases & disorders despite doing nothing to earn the suffering yet.

Kids do nothing to inccur god's wraith, I agree. So do hereditary defective genes. The only ones who could have prevented all this from happening were the ancestors. Instead, they were too busy entertaining themselves with incest, homosexuality, pedophilia and sexual orgies, which was and is forbidden by god.

Ancient people were not as bright as we thought they were, especially in health department.

Incest was widespread in ancient Egypt and Rome. Homosexuality was widespread in Greek. Sexual orgies was prevalent during Caligula's reign. Female slaves were raped legally while prostitues were not protected against STDs. For the last thousand years, liberalism in sexual activities had cause millions defective genes and abnormal mutation and continue to happen to this days.

Genes do not programme themselves to know good or evil. They simply reproduce and transmit.

Therefore, God does not smack our kids with hereditary defective genes and mutation. It was our ancestors. They had the choices. They chose bad choices. If we continue to behave like our ancestors, we too will smack our future kids, in decades to come. So educate ourselves, restrain our animal instinct with proper laws and tradition and do not blindly waste our precious semen illegally on multiple women. It's the only way to save our species from becoming mutants and zombies.

Pray that, God doesn't decide to destroy Earth and reset the creation first.

The Torah makes a poor history book. But as a guide to spiritual enlightenment its perhaps unmatched if one can decipher the symbolics. So I examined the Jewish Kabbalah interpretation (aka The Zohar) to help in understand it.

Likewise Christianity had higher teachings that were only transmitted to those ready to recieve it....

The Lord allowed us to communicate to those Divine Mysteries, and of that holy light, to those who are able to receive them. He did not certainly disclose to the many what did not belong to the many; but to the few to whom He knew that they belonged, who were capable of receiving and being molded according to them. But Secret things are entrusted to speech, not to writing as in the case with God… And to him who is able secretly to observe what is delivered to him, that which is veiled shall be disclosed as truth; and what is hidden to the many shall appear manifest to the few

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 150-215), Stromata

The message within the Torah isn't that dissamilar to that of Hinduism or Buddhism. In that we must overide all of our animal instincts for self gratification to achieve a higher spiritual awareness.

So I believe you have missed the whole deal about the fruit. And the fruit is everything.

If we use the Creators light for for sense gratification. It will block the Creators light from entering our vessel.

originally posted by: EasternShadow
Everything is about choice and consequrences. If we don't make choice, then other people will make the choice for us. If a soldier does not kill the enemy in gunshots, then he will be killed by the enemy. Even if the soldier run away to avoid killing, it is still a choice. It doesn't always has to be good choice.

Life is cruel, I know, but it is worthy trade to have the wisdom of god. I'm happy this "original sin" has lead me to know that there is always a choice to be a good person , even if others don't. If Adam did not eat the forbidden fruit aoens ago, we may still be running naked like babies in Eden, pure and innocent but lacking the wisdom to make the right choices...

Being "the image of god" is about making the right choice with responsibility. Otherwise, we are no better than animals or plants.

I hope knowing good and evil will bring happy life to you.

Let's see if I remember this fairy story correctly because if I do then it was the Serpent (Satan, The Devil and the myriad of other names this guy got stuck with for daring tell those 2 there might be a different way than Ignorance) The Serpent offered them the choice or at the least informed them there was a choice not god...god said NO...god offered no choice...if they had followed god well then we'd have no experience of wisdom now would we? Of course would we even be here? Or would the world still be a pristine static Eden?

Again here lies the rub. The Abrahamic religions twist logic to tell a tale of our origin without sufficient thinking through the equation. Tell us god said NO, but the "evil" serpent said yes therefor instead of staying static in ignorant bliss we fell and well that was all gods plan to begin with...WAIT WHAT?

In other words the telling contradicts itself much as 1 + 1 ≠ 3

originally posted by: abeverage

Let's see if I remember this fairy story correctly because if I do then it was the Serpent (Satan, The Devil and the myriad of other names this guy got stuck with for daring tell those 2 there might be a different way than Ignorance) The Serpent offered them the choice or at the least informed them there was a choice

A choice to suffer an eternal death. Of course.....The Serpent offered that choice. No, wait... He didn't inform. Why would he? He would rather see you enjoy and have fun as much as possible, only to suffer in the end, for making bad choices. Isn't that what he always whisper in your hear and tempted your desire?

originally posted by: abeverage
not god...god said NO...god offered no choice...

Adam and Eve are depended on God. They don't even know how to find food by themselves. They're not ready. You don't give choices to babies so that they could harm each other. You simply said NO.

originally posted by: abeverage
if they had followed god well then we'd have no experience of wisdom now would we?

It doesn't happen, so are cannot know for sure. But I do know, Adam and Eve were human. They will eventually grow up to be god someday.

God could have given the knowledge of good and evil when the time was right. Or Adam and Eve may not ever needed the fruit, because God will prepare everything for them.

But Adam and Eve were never ready for it. Neither do we. We have to suffer and the world we walk is cursed. Thanks to the Serpent.

originally posted by: abeverage
Of course would we even be here? Or would the world still be a pristine static Eden?

The world we live now would not be exist at all. It would be different earth and heaven. That world will eventually come after the destruction of this old world....

originally posted by: abeverage
Again here lies the rub. The Abrahamic religions twist logic to tell a tale of our origin without sufficient thinking through the equation. Tell us god said NO, but the "evil" serpent said yes therefor instead of staying static in ignorant bliss we fell and well that was all gods plan to begin with...WAIT WHAT?

I'm not here to teach you Abrahamic religions. I'm here to tell you it's your choice to do anything you like. You could always murder or torture or causing evils to other people. But remember, the consequences is yours to take. Either directly or indirectly.

God's plan is to create a perfect creation..He would have destroyed this world if it wasn't Jesus who came to give us another chance. But it doesn't stop God's plan. The new Earth and Heaven with perfect creation knowing to make the right decision with responsibility will arise. And this old world will be destroyed.

originally posted by: abeverage
In other words the telling contradicts itself much as 1 + 1 ≠ 3

Mathematic is useless without proper definition. Numbers can represent anything, and calculation depend on what process are you interpreting. And it is limited to quantify things. So save yourself trouble with basic arithmetic and logic argument. It is useless here.