Air as energy storage

Compressed air energy storage (CAES) is a way to store energy generated at one time for use at another time using compressed air. At utility scale, energy generated during periods of low energy demand (off-peak) can be released to meet higher demand (peak load) periods.
Compressed air energy storage - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org...

To me this seems like a more reliable and clean means of energy storage.

In my mind it would work by having solar panels hooked up to a high pressure air compressor that feeds a large storage tank. That could then feed an air motor that would supply to a battery that is then converted to 110v for on demand use.

You could even eliminate the battery all together but would work better with one.

Has anyone ever used or seen such?

What say you ats?

parts needed
pv system around 2000-3000watts
3000watt dc to ac converter
high capacity air compressor
200-500gal storage tank (lpg tank)
1-2 1000watt alternators
2-4hp air motor
1-4 car batteries
10,000watt 12vto110 dctoac converter
cables,lines,fuses and such

a reply to: howtonhawky

Never heard of anything like this it’s interesting. One of the things holding us back right now from renewable energy’s is proper battery storage so if this was a viable way of storing that’s better than a battery that would be awesome.

a reply to: scraedtosleep

Well all the products needed are currently on the market and not all that expensive.

No more wasted solar energy having to be burnt off cause your batteries are full.

The larger the air storage tank the longer a house could run.

Also most peeps that currently have pv systems could upgrade fairly cheap.

a reply to: howtonhawky

Storage is one thing , but conversion is another , and whether too much powerloss (uncaptured energy) occurs through conversion (regardless of storage methods) will also restrict the viabililty of the method . It takes quite a bit of energy to compress air , and to store it by making containers and valves.
Having said that the internal combustion engine compresses air and fuel mix and burns it. The air is the fuel , the petroleum is the catalyst

You'd have to look at how good pnumatics are at reproducing electric

originally posted by: ZIPMATT
a reply to: howtonhawky

Storage is one thing , but conversion is another , and whether too much powerloss (uncaptured energy) occurs through conversion (regardless of storage methods) will also restrict the viabililty of the method . It takes quite a bit of energy to compress air , and to store it by making containers and valves.
Having said that the internal combustion engine compresses air and fuel mix and burns it. The air is the fuel , the petroleum is the catalyst

You'd have to look at how good pnumatics are at reproducing electric

I have and when weighed against current losses occurring in pv systems this works.

a reply to: howtonhawky

Good , www.climatecolab.org... tor/c/proposal/1304530

Check this link , but mind to read the comments on there :/ . If you can do it , more power to you

Many peeps could just convert their wind turbines

originally posted by: ZIPMATT
a reply to: howtonhawky

Good , www.climatecolab.org... tor/c/proposal/1304530

Check this link ,

That is a mighty fine compliment

I would worry about the containment spontaneously disintegrating or cracking. One of the uses for salt caverns is to storage natural gas once all the salt has been extracted. Even a 400,000 tonne rock roof isn't strong enough.

www.nofrackingway.us...
www.naturalgasintel.com...

Maybe something man made would be stronger, like concrete and steel lining. Or just put the gasworks storage tanks underground in these caverns.

a reply to: stormcell

or just get a propane tank

i am looking at personal pv systems but larger ones could be used but are not really necessary cause the large pv systems just go straight into the grid most of the time so they do not use batteries like the home systems

Actually you could run without battery at all.

Combustion engine could be added for backup.

I don’t get why it has to be so complicated. Why not lift super heavy weights and store it as potential energy to spin a generator as it lowers, then you won’t need to maintain compressors, motors and plumbing.

a reply to: bananashooter

are you offering your lifting services

You could use a old railroad tank car for air storage they hold about 8000 gals. and since the DOT came out with new regulations a few years ago some of the old propane ones are being phased out

And you could do as some Amish do and use wind turbines to compress the air.

windcompressor.com...

a reply to: howtonhawky

Well, the energy density of compressed air is not that great 50-100 kJ/kg.

Compressing air heats it up. You'd have to either compress very slowly or somehow reuse the heat. Else your efficiency won't be great.

Using that compressed air (expanding it) will cool it down. So you either have to make sure the pressure drop happens slowly or heat it.

And finally your air motors have to be able to operate efficiently over a wide pressure range, else you will waste energy.

So I don't think it is really worth it, except for maybe some special cases.

a reply to: moebius

that is why you are not using such set up

your thoughts are designed for failure

i am talking about a small system and everything you purpose has already been addressed in commercial air pumps

i could see some failure you describe on a large scale system

i bet you think tires do not work either

originally posted by: ANNED
You could use a old railroad tank car for air storage they hold about 8000 gals. and since the DOT came out with new regulations a few years ago some of the old propane ones are being phased out

And you could do as some Amish do and use wind turbines to compress the air.

windcompressor.com...

yep
that is more inline with my thoughts

many people could just convert their current wind turbine set up with the addition of a air motor

a reply to: howtonhawky

This is no where near a bad idea.

When I was in high school, I had a summer job working at a copper mine. We ran compressed air locomotives through the mill to charge the secondary and tertiary crushers (primary crushers are giant mortar and pestle thingies outside - the crushed ore then goes to the secondary crusher which is a big cylinder containing 15 foot long steel bars rolling around - then it goes into the ball mill which has 3 inch balls rolling around). As the rods and the balls wear out, you replace them with fresh ones. the loco pulls the rods or balls, whichever you are recharging, to the proper location, then you use a giant electro magnet to lift them and dump them into the mill. The compressed air loco worked great and gave off no fumes (which is exactly why they used it for this application).

Wikipedia: Fireless Locomotive

The only problem is that your scheme is going to convert electricity to compressed air, and then back to electricity. This is not an efficient process. You will lose a LOT of energy compressing the air, a lot more than you will get back in fact. Compressing air generates a LOT of heat and that is energy that is going to waste.

It is far more effective to just store it in a battery right from the get-go. You know there are a lot of small air compressor run hand tools like nail guns and pressure washers, and etc. They comprise a small motor running a small compressor into a small pressure cylinder, then tapped as needed to run the tool. There is no reason why this compressor could not spin up a generator, it would be as easy as pie. But what is the point of that? Why not just hook up the generator directly to the small motor that otherwise is running the compressor? It would be a LOT cheaper, and much more efficient.

Furthermore, maintenance is going to be very high, pressure vessels require constant monitoring and testing. Trust me, you don't want to be anywhere near when one fails under pressure.

originally posted by: howtonhawky
Compressed air energy storage (CAES) is a way to store energy generated at one time for use at another time using compressed air. At utility scale, energy generated during periods of low energy demand (off-peak) can be released to meet higher demand (peak load) periods.
Compressed air energy storage - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org...

To me this seems like a more reliable and clean means of energy storage.

In my mind it would work by having solar panels hooked up to a high pressure air compressor that feeds a large storage tank. That could then feed an air motor that would supply to a battery that is then converted to 110v for on demand use.

You could even eliminate the battery all together but would work better with one.

Has anyone ever used or seen such?

What say you ats?

parts needed
pv system around 2000-3000watts
3000watt dc to ac converter
high capacity air compressor
200-500gal storage tank (lpg tank)
1-2 1000watt alternators
2-4hp air motor
1-4 car batteries
10,000watt 12vto110 dctoac converter
cables,lines,fuses and such

This is just a variation on pumping water uphill during low demand and then letting it flow back though peaking turbines when demand is high.
For an individual household, it is probably more economical and efficient to get a bigger battery array. One advantage to compressed air is portability and the efficiency may be sacrificed for convenience. The downside is that either large volumes or high pressures must be contained and likely the air will need to be dried to prevent corrosion of the system. Air cylinders can probably easily hold 3000 psig but a bank of bottles will need a protective enclosure. Then there is the problem of system reliability and maintenance; the more moving parts the greater the maintenance requirements and potential failures.