We Should Have Some Theory By Now

originally posted by: Lathroper

originally posted by: FireballStorm

originally posted by: standingwave
What is special about it is I have first hand experience with the same thing. Fake stars.

How do you know they are "fake"? I'm guessing you have done the due diligence, and photographed them with the aim of identifying them? If so, care to post an image/your findings?
snip
I get the impression the subject of UFOs/"fake stars" means a lot to you. Would that be fair to say?

I need to jump in and address "fake stars". It may not be that standingwave is really saying fake stars. Using my example he may be saying "UFOs disguised as stars" which do not shimmer. But to the naked eyes, they are points of lights that trick some minds into identifying the points of light, 'cause they're seen in the heavens, without a knowledge of basic astronomy.

My example: resting on a lounge at the building's darkened pool (North Hollywood, L.A.), I scanned the heavens with my 7-15X zoom binoculars. 3 vertical "stars", equally spaced, caught my attention but that's a common view so I started to look away. But before I moved my eyes too far, the top star took off at a high rate of speed towards San Diego. Surprised, a second or two later the middle star followed suit, then the 3rd or bottom "star". I had just had the sighting of a lifetime.

When you are out at night tending livestock, you get used to what stars are where and what constellations are supposed to look like. When all of a sudden you see an extra "star" where there hasnt been before, you take notice, then strange things start to happen. I have actually sat in one place many times for several hours, watching the usual stars slowly move across the sky. I have caught the imposters moving both slower, or faster, or not at all with relation to all the real stars. I have even waited them out long enough for the to "dim down" and then start moving toward the local horizon or treeline. No lie, no exaggeration.

originally posted by: Lathroper

originally posted by: FireballStorm

originally posted by: standingwave
What is special about it is I have first hand experience with the same thing. Fake stars.

How do you know they are "fake"? I'm guessing you have done the due diligence, and photographed them with the aim of identifying them? If so, care to post an image/your findings?
snip
I get the impression the subject of UFOs/"fake stars" means a lot to you. Would that be fair to say?

I need to jump in and address "fake stars". It may not be that standingwave is really saying fake stars. Using my example he may be saying "UFOs disguised as stars" which do not shimmer. But to the naked eyes, they are points of lights that trick some minds into identifying the points of light, 'cause they're seen in the heavens, without a knowledge of basic astronomy.

My example: resting on a lounge at the building's darkened pool (North Hollywood, L.A.), I scanned the heavens with my 7-15X zoom binoculars. 3 vertical "stars", equally spaced, caught my attention but that's a common view so I started to look away. But before I moved my eyes too far, the top star took off at a high rate of speed towards San Diego. Surprised, a second or two later the middle star followed suit, then the 3rd or bottom "star". I had just had the sighting of a lifetime.

Absolutely, I agree 100%. There can be various objects/phenomena that can appear to be star-like, and you point out one that catches out quite a few people. Aircraft/flight paths should be checked out too, even before looking at stars etc.

Having said that, my post was in reply to stndingwave's post, which gave me the impression he/she was describing a star/stars, but that was just my impression, based on very little detail. Looking back on it now, aircraft (or a mixure of both) might indeed be a real possibility in his/her case.

However, if the video footage he/she linked to is anything like he/she saw, then I'd be pretty confident he/she was looking at Sirius, which is also why I was focusing on stars in particular. As far as I'm aware the white lights on aircraft are not "full spectrum", and would likely not show as many colours and as much scintillation as we see in that video clip/footage taken of Sirius.

Having lived for years in a convenient place where I could also observe commercial aircraft stacking above each other as they flew in for final approach at a major airport, I don't recall them scintillating that much - at least not as much as with Sirius, but I suppose that is a rather subjective observation, and I'm happy to concede the point if pressed.

a reply to: skunkape23
Not necessarily. I am quite sure that if they wanted you or anybody else to see what they were doing, you would, in fact it would be big, and obvious, practically written across the sky and about as hard to miss. Maybe they were and are all, just passerby's.

If you could travel across million and millions of lightyears or # even from the next planet or galaxy over, or lets say across dimensions. Would you need magic tricks? And even if your some sort of grand cosmic troll. Well the trick would get old fast, in fact right after the first one. You would be like "well that was fun, now what else is there to do?"

I think your dismissing the cazynes and just downright randomness of the universe and things. So it very well may be that aliens and UFOs do exist and they just mozy on along there business doing what they do, and may not even have noticed anything out of there ordinary from there point of view, some may not even have noticed there was a planet here.

It is a mistake to assume that one is the center of anything, including a magic trick.

a reply to: standingwave

I do like to find the solution to a good trick.

Depends on your definition of a good trick?

For instance, I could do that magic trick in that vid to my dog. Now if he has not eaten in more then a few hours. He would be like "OMG-were did it go, are you some sort of magic food genie?" And proceed to look between left and right hand.

Now if I do the same trick if he ate already or is just not interested. He would prop down and proceed to lick his ass, as that would be a million times more interesting then the mystery of the disappearing treat.

Same trick, different results. So ya! I do believe a dog would be more interested in the treat, instead of the trick.

When it comes to trick or treat, the dog being a willful animal, will always take and prefer the treat over the trick. Same goes for humans, as every year on hollows eve shows. So ya! Maybe there is not trick, maybe your just willfully seeing things, a sort of mental treat for some me thinks.

And if there was, I am quite sure that these space magicians, may not be aware there performing a magic trick either.

originally posted by: standingwave

originally posted by: Lathroper

originally posted by: FireballStorm

originally posted by: standingwave
What is special about it is I have first hand experience with the same thing. Fake stars.

How do you know they are "fake"? I'm guessing you have done the due diligence, and photographed them with the aim of identifying them? If so, care to post an image/your findings?
snip
I get the impression the subject of UFOs/"fake stars" means a lot to you. Would that be fair to say?

I need to jump in and address "fake stars". It may not be that standingwave is really saying fake stars. Using my example he may be saying "UFOs disguised as stars" which do not shimmer. But to the naked eyes, they are points of lights that trick some minds into identifying the points of light, 'cause they're seen in the heavens, without a knowledge of basic astronomy.

My example: resting on a lounge at the building's darkened pool (North Hollywood, L.A.), I scanned the heavens with my 7-15X zoom binoculars. 3 vertical "stars", equally spaced, caught my attention but that's a common view so I started to look away. But before I moved my eyes too far, the top star took off at a high rate of speed towards San Diego. Surprised, a second or two later the middle star followed suit, then the 3rd or bottom "star". I had just had the sighting of a lifetime.

When you are out at night tending livestock, you get used to what stars are where and what constellations are supposed to look like. When all of a sudden you see an extra "star" where there hasnt been before, you take notice, then strange things start to happen. I have actually sat in one place many times for several hours, watching the usual stars slowly move across the sky. I have caught the imposters moving both slower, or faster, or not at all with relation to all the real stars. I have even waited them out long enough for the to "dim down" and then start moving toward the local horizon or treeline. No lie, no exaggeration.

I'm trapped in the city with no way to get out to the country. My brother-in-law lives in an ideal place upstate in Woodbourned, NY, approx. 96 miles. When we visit I can't wait for night to sit out on the open porch and spend hours until early a.m. enjoying the cosmic show and like you say, no lie, no exaggeration, one can see many strange things going on up there. Looking forward to the summer.

There is a lot more too it

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Earth is just like one drop in the ocean of stars. Life is abundant. Agendas are many. Keep your heads up and ear close to the ground.

a reply to: kwakakev

Heads up and ears on the ground?
You go first.

a reply to: Peeple

Natural selection will sort it out eventually if you cannot. Heads up means keeping track of what is going on. Ear to the ground is to listen to the long term trends, which way the train is coming. Plan B if you need it, some back up water is a good start.

The problem is all the people trying to make money off of it with sham stuff.

That muddy's the water and leaves everyone to believe it's ALL fake.

I still think you have to do two things. Look at each case individually and then look at the meta data or everyone together. the meta data will show you the patterns the real stuff is in the individual incidents though.

originally posted by: standingwave
Several things , not just the scintillation, give away an imitation. Although that seems to draw attention to them the most. When you combine that with being in a location in the sky where there is usually nothing to see, and also the fact they can take off moving around, stop, then start strobing again, it is kind of a dead giveaway.

I do suspect you may well be conflating various objects (as I wrote to Lathroper). What you describe above may well also be due to the autokinetic effect. Not everyone on here is willing to accept that our eyes play tricks on us sometimes, but there is very good evidence for this being the case. Not only is there good evidence for this from others, but I've also experienced it with my own eyes on multiple occasions. On one of those occasions I had a camera running (DSLR with fast wide angle lens taking multiple second exposures), and photographed a satellite which appeared to be "zig-zagging" (which is what happens when the autokinetic effect is observed in conjunction with a moving rather than stationary object) to my eye. Looking at that image later there was only a straight track, as you'd expect with a satellite, and I was able to positively ID it using satellite tracking software, so there is no doubt (in my mind at least) that the effect is real.

I've also visually observed this occurring with the ISS, which is a very familiar object for me, and unthinkable that I would mistake it for anything else due to timings/path/being relatively bright.

originally posted by: standingwave
I refer you to this man: en.wikipedia.org...

And his book, if you can find one reasonably priced:
www.amazon.com...

To be honest I'm a bit skeptical of anything connected with MUFON (they really do not have a clue), and of any claims of "stars that aren't stars". It's the first I've heard of this, which is surprising because I've been obsessive about photographing the night sky for almost 2 decades, and talk with others who also do so all the time. Not once in that time have I ever come across something behaving that unusually which could not be identified.

Having said that, I appreciate the links, and will investigate more when I have a chance.

originally posted by: standingwave
When you see what I described above with your own eyes, there really is nothing else left to prove that they are in fact real. Of course I wouldnt have believed it myself had I not seen it.

And that is the trouble. Most people trust their eyes too much at just the wrong time. The sky, especially at night, is just such a time. It's actually the brain that is the trouble, when it receives confusing information from the eyes, it often "fills in the gaps" or guesses, often wrongly, which is why we see illusions.

You mentioned earlier in this thread that you saw an object "fall near by", or words to that effect. I find that particularly interesting as I specialize in meteors/fireballs, and whenever there is a bright meteor or fireball that is widely seen, people submit witness reports to various organizations. With out fail, there are reports that "it fell near by" (and also some who say they have no idea what it was), when we can prove without doubt that it was many tens or even hundreds of km away. I went through some examples from one such event here in great detail.

In such cases our brain is unable to gauge distance properly (due to lack of visual cues that would normally enable us to do so), and because a bright light tends to be close, our brains mistakenly fill in the blank with "it was bright so it should be close". That is basically how this particular illusion works.

originally posted by: standingwave
Sorry I do not have footage or scientific data, this happened back in the 80's early 90's and I did not have the means to document it , although I feel confident I could search out and find this phenomena again, I prefer not to.

That's fair enough. However, if you ever feel the need to, it's very easy to prove much of what I have said by simply pointing a DSLR to the sky (and compare the acquired images to software). I'm more than happy to advise if you are unsure of how to do this. Just U2U me if so. It sounds like you might have reasonably light pollution free skies where you are. I'm sure you'd be amazed what can be caught with a modest DSLR setup. I can also help you choose used components if you don't have much of a budget. It doesn't have to be very expensive.

originally posted by: FireballStorm

originally posted by: standingwave
Several things , not just the scintillation, give away an imitation. Although that seems to draw attention to them the most. When you combine that with being in a location in the sky where there is usually nothing to see, and also the fact they can take off moving around, stop, then start strobing again, it is kind of a dead giveaway.

I do suspect you may well be conflating various objects (as I wrote to Lathroper). What you describe above may well also be due to the autokinetic effect. Not everyone on here is willing to accept that our eyes play tricks on us sometimes, but there is very good evidence for this being the case. Not only is there good evidence for this from others, but I've also experienced it with my own eyes on multiple occasions. snip

I'm glad you mentioned the autokinetic effect 'cause I had been racking my brain and it was not in sight (get it?) Not many people realize when it kicks in but are aware of the effect. Fortunately, it rarely repeats after first viewing which leaves you wondering if the object/star moved or you imagined it. It hasn't happened to me for many years but because I was knowledgeable about it, it was not a visual puzzle. Sometimes you don't see the effect but you feel your head jerk ever so lightly side to side which makes the whole field in front of you move.

I have a theory.
"The brontosaurus had a very long neck. And a very small head."

a reply to: skunkape23

Not bad. The egg shell of almost every bird gets thinner while the chick inside gets closer to "birth".

a reply to: FireballStorm

You would be wrong with regards to your explanation to what I have seen. Im sorry but there is more to it than what you are addressing . I do not think you are giving me much credit when it comes to taking what I say at face value. Do you think people really get worked up over normal stars twinkling in the night sky? ....No. At least I dont. No, what catches people attention is when they come down out of the sky and travel along the treeline, separate into two, go back together, all the while pulsing a deep red color. Or when they light up your entire field with a white light. THAT is what gets peoples attention. The scintillating stars are something they DO imitate, because I have watched them proceed in one continuous movement to do the things I just described.

I dont think Rutledge was connected with MUFON. He did have the backing of a newspaper out of St.Louis at the time, and they run articles from time to time.

I think I can tell the difference between a meteorite and something that cruises around at night that shouldnt be there. The red embers I seen that night were connected to everything else Im telling you. You really have no idea of what is going on in the world. Many people dont. I didnt believe in all this stuff till it started happening to me and my family.

I think that most people that live in cities are really hard to convince because of all the activity and lights there. When you live out away from all of that, you really dont have things like jets circling with landing lights on, or news helicopters flying around all night, no towers blinking lights, you are lucky to have radio or TV reception, let alone cell phone service. It is pitch black , with only you and the stars, the hills, the trees, and livestock. When something starts flying around your fields at night, one tends to take notice.

I no longer live there with my parents, although I do visit from time to time.

originally posted by: Lathroper

originally posted by: FireballStorm

originally posted by: standingwave
Several things , not just the scintillation, give away an imitation. Although that seems to draw attention to them the most. When you combine that with being in a location in the sky where there is usually nothing to see, and also the fact they can take off moving around, stop, then start strobing again, it is kind of a dead giveaway.

I do suspect you may well be conflating various objects (as I wrote to Lathroper). What you describe above may well also be due to the autokinetic effect. Not everyone on here is willing to accept that our eyes play tricks on us sometimes, but there is very good evidence for this being the case. Not only is there good evidence for this from others, but I've also experienced it with my own eyes on multiple occasions. snip

I'm glad you mentioned the autokinetic effect 'cause I had been racking my brain and it was not in sight (get it?

) Not many people realize when it kicks in but are aware of the effect. Fortunately, it rarely repeats after first viewing which leaves you wondering if the object/star moved or you imagined it. It hasn't happened to me for many years but because I was knowledgeable about it, it was not a visual puzzle. Sometimes you don't see the effect but you feel your head jerk ever so lightly side to side which makes the whole field in front of you move.

I am fully aware of the effect. This is why I would use objects like a roof line to better see movement. You have to be very still though, unless you have something like a wire or string you can tie to two objects and sight down.

originally posted by: standingwave
a reply to: FireballStorm

You would be wrong with regards to your explanation to what I have seen. Im sorry but there is more to it than what you are addressing . I do not think you are giving me much credit when it comes to taking what I say at face value.

It's not very easy to give someone credit when you've observed something yourself that matches the description given, but can also definitively identify that thing. That is especially true if that someone also shows that they do no understand the context of the subject at hand.

The context in this case is the night sky/astronomy, and with all due respect, you can spend all the time you want looking at the stars, but without putting in the time to understand what you are looking at, you can't really expect to be able to effectively tell one object from another, or be able to say what is going on. There is a huge difference between looking at something, and observing/understanding something.

I'm not a livestock farmer, although I'd like to think I know the basics, but I'd never presume to tell you that you don't know what you are doing when it comes to livestock.

Anyway, at "face value", you started off by posting footage of what is most probably a star, and saying that's what your UFO looked like. You then followed that up by basically admitting you don't know much about astronomy, but others who do must be wrong.

What "value" would you suggest is assigned to that?

originally posted by: standingwave
Do you think people really get worked up over normal stars twinkling in the night sky? ....No. At least I dont.

On this forum I see people getting worked up every day about things like aircraft, birds, insects, balloons, and all kinds of other "everyday" objects. Why would I not expect people to be as familiar as they think they are when it comes to stars and astronomy (in most cases)? Let's be honest, the average person knows very little about stars and the night sky.

originally posted by: standingwave
No, what catches people attention is when they come down out of the sky and travel along the treeline, separate into two, go back together, all the while pulsing a deep red color. Or when they light up your entire field with a white light. THAT is what gets peoples attention. The scintillating stars are something they DO imitate, because I have watched them proceed in one continuous movement to do the things I just described.

Unfortunately we only have your word for that. If it means that much to you, then gather some evidence to support your claims.

originally posted by: standingwave
I dont think Rutledge was connected with MUFON.

Then you should read the links you post more carefully. That is what it says on Wikipedia.

originally posted by: standingwave
I think I can tell the difference between a meteorite and something that cruises around at night that shouldnt be there.

Most people probably also think the same, but having read thousands of witness reports of such events over the years, it's surprising just how many can't!

Unfortunately you can't even tell the difference between a "meteor" and a "meteorite". Yes, the details DO matter, and it's the little things, that are telling.

originally posted by: standingwave
I think that most people that live in cities are really hard to convince because of all the activity and lights there. When you live out away from all of that, you really dont have things like jets circling with landing lights on, or news helicopters flying around all night, no towers blinking lights, you are lucky to have radio or TV reception, let alone cell phone service. It is pitch black , with only you and the stars, the hills, the trees, and livestock. When something starts flying around your fields at night, one tends to take notice.

I no longer live there with my parents, although I do visit from time to time.

It sounds just like where I live now. No TV reception, and patchy mobile service at best. We only moved here 5 years ago (from the city) mainly because there is minimal light pollution and when it's clear I can step outside and almost immediately start to make out the Milky Way. I take every opportunity I can to observe.

While I agree with you that the light pollution is a big problem, especially in cities, even if most of the LP was taken away, people in this day and age are way too disconnected with the stars and nature in general. They are more concerned with mobile phones, texting, selfies, facebook, etc. Even having spent 5 years or so living in a place that is nearly light pollution free, almost no one we've talked to here seems the least bit aware we even have stars here it seems!

I would not be one bit surprised if statistics showed that more people living in rural areas see UFOs if population density was taken out of the equation. Why? Because if you live somewhere where you can clearly see the sky at night, you are more likely to see the things which most people don't talk about, and are written off due to ignorance, but are totally normal.

In my experience most people (who are new to the subject - ie most people) on the net are shocked when you tell them they can go out and actually see an Iridum satellite flaring as bright as a new Moon (bright enough to light up an entire valley, let alone a field), at a precise time that has been predicted well in advance. Mention it to some average joe you meet on the street, and they would likely look at you funny and dismiss you as a loon.

a reply to: standingwave

When you see what I described above with your own eyes, there really is nothing else left to prove that they are in fact real

The YouTube video you linked that you said was legit because you saw the exact same thing is what you are saying is real.

How do you conclude a light moving around in the sky is a "they"?

IF I saw that, I would want to know what I saw, it wouldn't proof of anything other than unidentified lights can be seen in the night sky, however, I was never skeptical about that.

So If I saw that, it would in no way prove aliens visiting.

You have seen it, so how does it prove anything other than UFO can been seen which has been proven for decades?

a reply to: standingwave

Do you think people really get worked up over normal stars twinkling in the night sky? ....No.

seeing as how Pilots have put in UFO reports that ended up being Venus or some other celestial object then I would say yes, people can get worked up about very mundane things they misidentify.

Trying to form a conclusion about ufos and there origins is like playing with a Chinese Finger trap...the harder one tries pull, the tighter it gets. What I mean by that is, the harder one tries to formulate an idea or concept of Ufos, the more harder it is to wrap ones mind about it.


Theories range from folklore all the way to what can be done an produced scientifically. Until science can replicate a ball of light that can float, an fly in manner of directions with incredible speeds, and finally understand the undefinable on context...no dice.

As for the trickster concept, it has more to do with mentality where the supernatural gets smart...very smart.

a reply to: FireballStorm

Well, I suppose I just dont know what Im talking about. But it seems you ignored the most important part of my description when said these things come down from the sky, turn red, fly along the edge of the treeline, stop, start. split in two, and light up entire fields silvery white. Im not sure if you intentionally are trying to ingnore these parts and the manner in which it happened, or you are just so busy trying to discredit me you just missed all that.

The reason I linked to that video is because the whole scenario outlined above started with a brightly pulsating or strobing multiple color object .

Now if you want to further ignore the context of what Im describing, I wish you would move along, you can either believe it or not. It really is that simple.

Off topic from my own thread a little, but I will add there are MANY others seeing this same stuff, and they dont need acceptance from people who want to take it all out of context. If you are sincere, you will try to find a copy of the book I mentioned earlier and read it. The author was a local teacher here where I live and an honest man.

Let this post and this thread be a witness to all others who may have seen these imposters in the night sky, as you are not the only ones.