US Would Fight Without Air Support for Weeks if War With Russia Began

Can we not just have peace
Everyone dying and destroying our planet.. would be a great movie, but not as a real life scenario.

Dear ATS Readers, Writers,

a reply to: Spacespider

Thanks Spacespider... and Oh So True!!

There certainly must be a better way forward... than the sword of Damocles suspended over everyones head...

War.. an activity that, historically, mankind has ever rarely "laid to rest" over the years.

War, it seems to be something cyclical about it.... some morbid ritual every generation or two to appease the gods of commerce and kingdoms.

Suddenly, I can't shake the thoughts and memories of those nature movies showing lemmings jumping to their demises in the sea. Gee, I wonder why..lol.

Pravdaseeker

a reply to: ZIPMATT

I'm going to bow down to your knowledge of the SCO. I have some research to do.

On an intuitive level, it smacks of an updated 'All East-Asian Co-prosperity Sphere" Of Japanese origins. The Chinese loan of 10 Billion to member nations also smacks of a more peaceful version of the above aimed at a similar status for China as the U.S. has enjoyed in the west in the past.

It also strikes as much as a back-up organization. A 'break glass in case of fire' option. Especially since the Trump administration has knocked international 'prediction' of U.S. direction and resolve.

Also, the nations of Asia that aren't members speak almost as loudly. Especially the immediate neighbors of China. Vietnam seems to be straddling both sides and keeping their options open.

The current stressed relations between China and India is an indication that not all the members have bought into this organization at the expense of individual interests.

Your aircraft carrier comments I can respond to with more confidence. Hyper-sonic missiles? Then why would China be wasting yuans on building their own? They just finished their first self built carrier which begins sea trails this year.

I suspect both hyperbole on the effectiveness of those missiles and a recognition that the U.S. is very close to countering them. Both via missile systems, electomagnetic projectiles and direct energy weapons. The advantage would likely lie in littoral waters with hypersonic missile. The new U.S. tankers also increase the range carrier based aircraft can operate from.

As in Red Flag 18-1, training was highlighted by non GPS guided systems. That implies satellite systems have been negated or close to being so. Also, laser equipped fighters begin testing this summer in the U.S..

Power and range is still an issue and the next gen. will expand on both. Militarily, the U.S. is still dominant. Can Trump rebuild the industrial base and maintain the military edge is the question, I believe. It will go a long way to whether the changes are coming sooner rather than later.

Meh, what do I know...

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: ZIPMATT

Double post

a reply to: nwtrucker



The US have nothing that will make them better suited for a war agianst China or Russia. That si why the US and Russia use Proxy forces to fight their Battles.


The US probably have more Words within their vocabilary. But that will not save them... nor will any CGI on Youtube.


When it comes to a war between superpowers a ignorant stance means nothing. You would have to take what is comming any ways.

Moste of you have not suffered a day in Your life. Pick a fight With Russia and China and you will know all about suffering.

I just want to mention one more important thing. WHen it comes to the US and Syria. The US had drawn a red line when it comes to Syira, but have steped back, because Russia steped up. Russian on the other hand have never backed up once when it comes to challenging the US.

If the US think for a minute that Russia will not Challenge them.... they are in for a suprice. The US are set on NWO where the US police the world. Russia wont hear about it.

originally posted by: spy66
I just want to mention one more important thing. WHen it comes to the US and Syria. The US had drawn a red line when it comes to Syira, but have steped back, because Russia steped up. Russian on the other hand have never backed up once when it comes to challenging the US.

If the US think for a minute that Russia will not Challenge them.... they are in for a suprice. The US are set on NWO where the US police the world. Russia wont hear about it.

Oh really? Then explain Russia's Ukrainian back-off. In the least little while the 'local Ukrainians'...cough, cough, seem less inclined to continue their rebellion. Then there's the one to two dead Russian mercenaries that have drawn no response.

There is a different administration these days....

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: spy66
I just want to mention one more important thing. WHen it comes to the US and Syria. The US had drawn a red line when it comes to Syira, but have steped back, because Russia steped up. Russian on the other hand have never backed up once when it comes to challenging the US.

If the US think for a minute that Russia will not Challenge them.... they are in for a suprice. The US are set on NWO where the US police the world. Russia wont hear about it.

Oh really? Then explain Russia's Ukrainian back-off. In the least little while the 'local Ukrainians'...cough, cough, seem less inclined to continue their rebellion. Then there's the one to two dead Russian mercenaries that have drawn no response.

There is a different administration these days....

As far as i can see. Nothing in Ukraine is resolved. Russia is still there and have even geared up all along the Unkraine boarder.

a reply to: spy66

Thanks for the lengthy reply, I appreciate you taking the time to detail your thoughts.

Regarding the assertion that the US would have great difficulty defending its NATO allies against a Russian attack, is the assumption that all/any of our NATO allies lack nuclear capabilities of their own and would be reticent to use them if Russia does so against them?

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: spy66
I just want to mention one more important thing. WHen it comes to the US and Syria. The US had drawn a red line when it comes to Syira, but have steped back, because Russia steped up. Russian on the other hand have never backed up once when it comes to challenging the US.

If the US think for a minute that Russia will not Challenge them.... they are in for a suprice. The US are set on NWO where the US police the world. Russia wont hear about it.

Oh really? Then explain Russia's Ukrainian back-off. In the least little while the 'local Ukrainians'...cough, cough, seem less inclined to continue their rebellion. Then there's the one to two dead Russian mercenaries that have drawn no response.

There is a different administration these days....

As far as i can see. Nothing in Ukraine is resolved. Russia is still there and have even geared up all along the Unkraine boarder.

Resolved? perhaps not. Certainly not the push that was there at the onset. Sorry, but I see the same mechanism with Putin as I see with the U.S..

The R.O.E. have changed in every point of friction between the two nations. Local commanders...well commanders are given latitude on target selection within the framework of CIC direction. Far more latitude in responding wih force. To wit, the dead Russian mercenaries are a direct result of local command.

If Putin was testing that response. he has his answer, Yes?

a reply to: nwtrucker



Russia could have prevented a divided Ukraine by invading the Whole country. And they could av stoped Ukraine from being messed up by Victoria Neuland. But they dident go that far.

The peopel of Ukraine messed up big time when they let the US in. Now they have a divided country that will never be United ever again as long as the US and Russia dont get along.

Ukraine actually have no say in anything important when it comes to their country. THat is between US and Russia. The western Ukraine can not just walk and take back the eastern part of Ukraine that they lost. Russia wont allowe it. That is also why they have not done it, because Russia will retaliate against any push made by western Ukraine even if it is backed up by US made hardware.


Russia will crush western Ukraine forces if they cross the Ceasfire line..... there should be no doubt about it.


When the initial fight took Place a few years back. Russia shut Down the Whole Ukraine airspace. Ukraine didnt fly a single jet when Russia turned on their Electronic warfare systems. Ukraine also didnt have any coms either so they dident get any accurate cooridinates to conduct a retaliation aganst the pro-russion Ukrains. Not even the US artilliry radar worked at that time. That was later blamed on poorly skilled Ukrainian operators.

NATO observers even noticed how effect the RUssians were.

Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, commander of U.S. Army units in Europe, has described Russian EW capabilities in Ukraine as “eye-watering.” Ronald Pontius, deputy to Army Cyber Command’s chief, Lt. Gen. Edward Cardon, told a conference this month that “you can’t but come to the conclusion that we’re not making progress at the pace the threat demands.”

The electronic war was on display from the start of the Russian incursion into Crimea in the spring of 2014. Not long after Russian EW equipment began rolling into the region, Ukrainian troops began to find that their radios and phones were unusable for hours at a time. Meanwhile, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, an international conflict-monitoring group, has consistently reported that its drones watching the conflict in eastern Ukraine have been “subject to military-grade GPS jamming,” forcing monitors to scrub missions taking stock of the war below.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: nwtrucker



Russia could have prevented a divided Ukraine by invading the Whole country. And they could av stoped Ukraine from being messed up by Victoria Neuland. But they dident go that far.

The peopel of Ukraine messed up big time when they let the US in. Now they have a divided country that will never be United ever again as long as the US and Russia dont get along.

Ukraine actually have no say in anything important when it comes to their country. THat is between US and Russia. The western Ukraine can not just walk and take back the eastern part of Ukraine that they lost. Russia wont allowe it. That is also why they have not done it, because Russia will retaliate against any push made by western Ukraine even if it is backed up by US made hardware.


Russia will crush western Ukraine forces if they cross the Ceasfire line..... there should be no doubt about it.


When the initial fight took Place a few years back. Russia shut Down the Whole Ukraine airspace. Ukraine didnt fly a single jet when Russia turned on their Electronic warfare systems. Ukraine also didnt have any coms either so they dident get any accurate cooridinates to conduct a retaliation aganst the pro-russion Ukrains. Not even the US artilliry radar worked at that time. That was later blamed on poorly skilled Ukrainian operators.

NATO observers even noticed how effect the RUssians were.

Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, commander of U.S. Army units in Europe, has described Russian EW capabilities in Ukraine as “eye-watering.” Ronald Pontius, deputy to Army Cyber Command’s chief, Lt. Gen. Edward Cardon, told a conference this month that “you can’t but come to the conclusion that we’re not making progress at the pace the threat demands.”

The electronic war was on display from the start of the Russian incursion into Crimea in the spring of 2014. Not long after Russian EW equipment began rolling into the region, Ukrainian troops began to find that their radios and phones were unusable for hours at a time. Meanwhile, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, an international conflict-monitoring group, has consistently reported that its drones watching the conflict in eastern Ukraine have been “subject to military-grade GPS jamming,” forcing monitors to scrub missions taking stock of the war below.

What you say is likely true. Omitted is there was no will or leadership from the west and certainly not from NATO. To assume that hasn't changed under the Trump administration would be a serious miscalculation. The Russians apparently have a fine EW suite. However, you never see anything ever mentioned regarding the EW capabilities of either the F-22 or the F-35. Neither have been used even in blue on blue exercises in the U.S..

As in the thread just posted, apparently two Israeli F-35s have made all the way into Iran and back without detection.
That would include S-300s and S400s in Syria as well as Iran.

No, not fear. A lack of will and interest. The U.S. betrayed the Ukrainians by reneging on the ABM system promised in exchange for giving up their nuclear capacity. (Was that Obama or Bush?)

Being of both Ukrainian and White Russian lineage, I can say there is no love lost by Ukrainians for Russia and no liberated nation ever, in history,willingly returned to an empire's fold. It therefore would be easier for NATO to retake the east than Russia taking the west, IMO.

As you say, it's all U.S. and Russia's call. At the moment I can't see willing co-operation between the EU and the U.S. in such a matter, at all.

Unless Putin tries to take it all. Then he would lose badly....perhaps his life, as well as his position.

originally posted by: pravdaseekerA "butt-load" of money got pretty much wasted on this really questionable F-35...

Everyone who flies it says it's amazing. In actual testing the F-35 was nearly flawless in killing everything thrown at it with only 1 loss from sheer luck. And that's not even it's real role.

a reply to: nwtrucker

you never see anything ever mentioned regarding the EW capabilities of either the F-22 or the F-35. Neither have been used even in blue on blue exercises in the U.S..

The US hardly ever do military drills were the Space that they operate in is being absolutly jamed or even slightly jamed.

THe only times where communication is bad is when NATO drills take Place and there is a Language barrier. And where other NATO members dont have up to date communication systems. But training in a enviorment that is being jamed by different system.... hardly ever.

WHen it comes to the F-22, F-35, choppers, Tanks, HMVs, APCs, Artillary, troops and so on. The goal With jaming would be to isolate the airspace that surrounds the assets. That means preventing signals to Reach them. And prevent and distort the signals that leaves these assets so that they dont Reach a resceiver.

You create a silent air Space where no signals will make sense when they Reach a resiever. Neither the F-22 or the F-35s are imune to any of this.

NATO troops on the ground will not be able to communicate With their air and ground assets if their communication is jamed. They cant Call for support or give intell.

Americans presume that this will nerver happen.... their techology is so much more advanced, therfore they dont Train in a enviorment where they dont have communication. The US also only have 813 trops who knows anything about EW in the Battle field. EW is not a priority in the US military.

At the moment, U.S. Army battalions typically assign two soldiers to the EW mission, and they will “have to do 24-hour operations” in battle against sophisticated enemies, Church said. That includes planning and coordinating with other battalion units as well as ensuring that their own jammers and advanced communications tools are working. “There’s too much to do for those guys in a battalion,” Church said. “So how do you maintain in a high-intensity environment against a peer enemy?”

As in the thread just posted, apparently two Israeli F-35s have made all the way into Iran and back without detection.

I think Israel is ashamed they let the story roll for so long in their media. The F-35 dont have fuel capasity to do that trip non stop without refueling. But i dont know the facts. Israel could have done it if they were allowed to fly over Iraq or Saudi Arabia and land or refuel in their airspace.

Personally i think this is a hype story because of the assumptions that were made when the F-35 was said to be hit by a S2 missile from Syria. Stories like this creates stories that can save some face for the F-35. The story will probably nerver be confirmed.

It therefore would be easier for NATO to retake the east than Russia taking the west, IMO.

This wont happen. NATO trops cant engage Russia because that would end in a full scale world war. The US wont fight for the western Ukrains. But they will Train and supply you at a cost in US Dollars.

WHat might happen is that the US will bring in musslim fighters like they did in Jugoslavia, Libya and Syria to create a Proxy war against Russia. If they do that you and Your people are really in for treat you dident exspect or even want.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: nwtrucker

you never see anything ever mentioned regarding the EW capabilities of either the F-22 or the F-35. Neither have been used even in blue on blue exercises in the U.S..

The US hardly ever do military drills were the Space that they operate in is being absolutly jamed or even slightly jamed.

THe only times where communication is bad is when NATO drills take Place and there is a Language barrier. And where other NATO members dont have up to date communication systems. But training in a enviorment that is being jamed by different system.... hardly ever.

WHen it comes to the F-22, F-35, choppers, Tanks, HMVs, APCs, Artillary, troops and so on. The goal With jaming would be to isolate the airspace that surrounds the assets. That means preventing signals to Reach them. And prevent and distort the signals that leaves these assets so that they dont Reach a resceiver.

You create a silent air Space where no signals will make sense when they Reach a resiever. Neither the F-22 or the F-35s are imune to any of this.

NATO troops on the ground will not be able to communicate With their air and ground assets if their communication is jamed. They cant Call for support or give intell.

Americans presume that this will nerver happen.... their techology is so much more advanced, therfore they dont Train in a enviorment where they dont have communication. The US also only have 813 trops who knows anything about EW in the Battle field. EW is not a priority in the US military.

At the moment, U.S. Army battalions typically assign two soldiers to the EW mission, and they will “have to do 24-hour operations” in battle against sophisticated enemies, Church said. That includes planning and coordinating with other battalion units as well as ensuring that their own jammers and advanced communications tools are working. “There’s too much to do for those guys in a battalion,” Church said. “So how do you maintain in a high-intensity environment against a peer enemy?”

As in the thread just posted, apparently two Israeli F-35s have made all the way into Iran and back without detection.

I think Israel is ashamed they let the story roll for so long in their media. The F-35 dont have fuel capasity to do that trip non stop without refueling. But i dont know the facts. Israel could have done it if they were allowed to fly over Iraq or Saudi Arabia and land or refuel in their airspace.

Personally i think this is a hype story because of the assumptions that were made when the F-35 was said to be hit by a S2 missile from Syria. Stories like this creates stories that can save some face for the F-35. The story will probably nerver be confirmed.

It therefore would be easier for NATO to retake the east than Russia taking the west, IMO.

This wont happen. NATO trops cant engage Russia because that would end in a full scale world war. The US wont fight for the western Ukrains. But they will Train and supply you at a cost in US Dollars.

WHat might happen is that the US will bring in musslim fighters like they did in Jugoslavia, Libya and Syria to create a Proxy war against Russia. If they do that you and Your people are really in for treat you dident exspect or even want.

Nothing stays the same:

www.thedrive.com...

This took place a couple of months back.

a reply to: nwtrucker

There are very informative and thoughtful contributions I just read it all again and the original link , and looked up the acronyms .it's looking like the West is already quite thoroughly outstripped , and not only in the political organisations senses as I understood the engagements . Any future war will probably require the heavy involvement of Co-operative Engagement Capabilities , and as a novice in the realities of large scale or urgent combined military engagements , I had no idea the premise of the thread was that serious , that russia was so well advanced in control of EW as to have' blacked out' Ukraine airspace by jamming geo-magnetic normality .( have they now withdrawn except for from the Crimea?) That jamming would explain the potential lack of air support in a fight with russia from Europe , and that situation they'd provide could even last longer than weeks? . And never knew that there were so few US forces so far enabled on the EW role for their various groups, both for defensive and offensive arrangements . Presumably , if the russians can jam that airspace making reconaissance very difficult , then if they shared that tech with the chinese and everyone else within the sco's military alliance , and maybe offered it to Vietnam or Taiwan instead of American protection there'd still then be that same problem on a much wider scale than just on the European edges . The wiki page changes, as the contentious ones do , it still mentions the joint military exercises , though a much later multipolar world declaration with several more signatories took place about in 2014 , not mentioned at the moment .

IF there were a physical war between west and east it seems logical there really could be near immediate escalation well past longer range cannons into ballistic missile and tactical nukes into something even worse , as others described, to try and avert loss . Conventional has changed it's definitions again as it is , and we can also expect the unexpected still. It's found a little odd that the r&d corporation have not kept up but have in the op article noted being , apparently rapidly, overtaken by other powers and forces in the world . Where has all that money gone ? There again , the weight of literal population count the Eastern bloc is made up of has got be a factor counterbalancing their powers too : more people is more intelligence , more knowledge , more tools , and more raw power . With good fortune , the recognition
that less aggressive foreign policy from all countries and organisations of the world including
r&d and the states is a fundamental requirement for sane continuity , will take the place of any war . Its surely easy to forsee that any continuance of (economic) iniquity will lead to inevitable consequences , be it war or any other form of subversion that brings them. Even Winning an arms race will at some point, maybe soon, not provide the necessary security for national beligerance or keep safe a selfish nation's leaders or their umbrella organisations
It could be seen that , regardless of the past 's coherent planning and execution of irrationality in unipolar policy , which only leads to the unpeaceful environment of today, the state of (only) 2 matched or deadlocked blocs is actually going to be conducive to firstly , truthful talking and then perhaps an agreement for lasting order at some point in the future .

a reply to: ZIPMATT


OK. I'm basically done with this. I's very apparent to me, if not you, that Russia taking Crimea had zero to do with EW...beyond Russia knowing fully well Ukrainian assets, tactics and counter EW capabilities.

Obama and NATO weren't going to war with Russia over Crimea or the Ukraine. That's the understanding Putin had regarding leadership and will. He was correct.

You gloss over my points and now say the U.S.'s policies are insane. I modify that with current U.S. Policies as opposed to past ones. I find the increased pressures on Putin via Europe and the U.S. telling and use of EW probably leans in the U.S.'s favor in that if we go back to pre-smart systems, the U.S., both training-wise and numerically, would dominate Russia in very short order.

Beyond nuclear capability, Russia is slipping fast into non-relevance. Italy's economy is bigger than Russia's. It is the last gasp of a dying superpower. JMO, though.

a reply to: nwtrucker



Yes, and did you read it?


"It states that it will be different then any in the past". The US dont do this a lot at all.


This time they will have to fly With a map on their lap. They should take away coms to for 25 minutes at at time as well and see how that Works out for them.

a reply to: nwtrucker

I's very apparent to me, if not you, that Russia taking Crimea had zero to do with EW...beyond Russia knowing fully well Ukrainian assets, tactics and counter EW capabilities.

It is very apparent to me that you dont know why the Pro-Russian rebels defeated you. Ukraine forces had no way to communicate or to give fire controll and artilliry coordinates. WHen the pro-russian had Russian scout jamers that pinpointed every loction the Ukrainian forces were at.

Russia gave the pro-russian rebels a series of different type of jamers. That gave the pro-russians a full situation awareness. Were Ukraine force had non.

Western Ukraine diden loose the war gainst the pro-russians because they were out numbered. THey knew Your tacktics and used Russian Technology to supress Western Ukraine tacktics.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: nwtrucker

I's very apparent to me, if not you, that Russia taking Crimea had zero to do with EW...beyond Russia knowing fully well Ukrainian assets, tactics and counter EW capabilities.

It is very apparent to me that you dont know why the Pro-Russian rebels defeated you. Ukraine forces had no way to communicate or to give fire controll and artilliry coordinates. WHen the pro-russian had Russian scout jamers that pinpointed every loction the Ukrainian forces were at.

Russia gave the pro-russian rebels a series of different type of jamers. That gave the pro-russians a full situation awareness. Were Ukraine force had non.

Western Ukraine diden loose the war gainst the pro-russians because they were out numbered. THey knew Your tacktics and used Russian Technology to supress Western Ukraine tacktics.

The Ukrainians use Russian equipment. Same aircraft same radio systems. The U.S. doesn't. Neither does NATO.

You didn't look at the link I sent you, did you?

The U.S. is already more practiced at that style of combat than any Russian pilot. There was no 'you'. If Russia was capable of achieving anything approaching what this link claims, Putin wouldn't have been stopped. He'd have taken the whole of the Ukraine. He didn't. He can't and he won't.