as the plot has thickened.....since it thickened

a reply to: GBP/JPY

I think there is a little more involved
Showing the fruit of the Holy Spirit is the evidence of salvation
The lifestyle of a believer
As James said "Show me your faith and I Will show you my works"

The fruit of the Spirit is how we live our lives after salvation

Remember the bible says many will come and say "Lord" and God will say, " I don't know you"

originally posted by: burgerbuddy

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: GBP/JPY

And if you had lost that land, wouldn’t that just be god’s plan? It seems you are only praising god because you think he tipped the world in your favor. I’m sure you didn’t do any extra work, or make a deal with a human that helped you save that land. You just sat in the dirt and prayed until god did something about it right? And then a glowing bag of money descended from a firey thrown in the sky and the bankers saw that this was good enough.

Did God give you cancer for some reason?

Uhhmm.... i don’t have cancer?

a reply to: ooder57

FYI: God ALWAYS gets the last laugh...

Epicurus' Trilemma:

1. If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.
2. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
3. If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?


So according to the texts, he can be an omnipotent God but if he is then he is not a good God. If he is a good God, then he cannot be omnipotent. The third choice would actually point to a non-existence.

Can the same God give you 5 acres and kill innocent babies?

Let's take this example, because people always say God puts you in situations to test you, as if he were not omnipotent and already knew you and your soul.

Let's say he gives cancer to a couple's 3 year old daughter, in order to test their faith. Their faith is tested and the daughter dies. Their faith is shaken up and they never recover from it. They both now die without Jesus in their hearts and therefore go to hell. So God took a perfectly good family who may have been destined for heaven, killed a child and doomed the parents to eternity of hell. For what? If he is omnipotent then he should have known how it would turn out, right? And if he did not and just caused pain and mayhem, is he good?

a reply to: Kharron

The flaw in this argument is that Epicurus assumes that evil comes from God when in fact evil comes from humans...

And it's not paradoxal, you know why? Because the evil doesn't come from Him. It comes from our choice to disobey. And that choice comes from our free will. And if we have free will, God will give us the freedom to make choices and get the consequences. Good choices bring good consequences, bad choices bring bad consequences.

But depriving us from both the options and the consequences would be depriving us from our own freedom and will. And God doesn't want that. He wants us to keep the freedom and will that He gave us, so that nobody is forced to follow Him and nobody is forced to distance themselves from Him. He wants everything we to do be heartfelt and our own decision.

This way I can conclude that God has many ways of working: the main one is through us! Everyday God is helping people fight evil, but he won't do so unless we choose that that is what we want! And sometimes, evil, the things that are against God's nature, are much more alluring than children dying in Africa. Gluttony, adultery, gossips, envy, lying, these are a few examples of things that sometimes "feel right" or "not that bad because of this and that", but are evil because they're against God's nature of self-control, Truth, loyalty, honesty, Love.

But that's the thing: he won't help us fight the evil if evil things are what we actually want! Again, He wants everything we to do be heartfelt and our own decision! On the other hand, if we choose to live righteously before His eyes, follow Him, and let Him take action in our lives, He will help us, and he will use us to help others, because he is able to, and willing to, any time.

Epicurean Paradox - the simple refutation by a theist

The whole thing hinges on where evil originates. It does not come from God. It comes from people that are willing to DO evil. And since God loves us so much, He has given us free-will to do whatever we want. If He interceded to stop evil, then we no longer are free-moral agents. We become mere puppets under the control of God. Then.......what's the point? There is no longer any relationship at all! Epicurus' riddle is flawed from the first sentence. The rest just compounds on the false premise he propounds from the beginning.

Theists, what say you to Epicurus' riddle?

The problem with this is that evil is a free will issue. If we were to use the 10 Commandments as a standard of understanding what is right and wrong, there are some points everyone would agree on. “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13), for example, would be one of those things that most people would agree is wrong.

We wouldn't have a problem if God took away our desire or ability to kill. But what about the commandment that says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3)? Would the critic be agreeable if God forced everyone to worship Him? Somehow I think he wouldn't like this option. It's a similar dilemma to the one above where we want God to deal with the evil in everyone else, but we want God to let us continue in our own evil.

To be fair to the critic, though, I wouldn't like this option too much either. If God eliminates our ability to do evil, He also eliminates our ability to choose to do good. I want to worship God. I don't want to be a robot who only performs a task because that what it's programmed to do and it doesn't know anything else. Perhaps God too doesn't want this because He has obviously decided not to deal with evil this way.

A third option is this: give people the free will to decide to do good or evil. Everyone chooses to do evil, of course, and the unrepentant will reap the just punishment for their actions. However, God could make a way of forgiveness available to those who repent of their evil. This is the option that God has chosen.

God made this option available at a great personal cost to Himself. In doing so, He has demonstrated that He is both able and willing to do something about evil. He has also demonstrated another characteristic that Epicurus did not mention in his riddle; besides being omnipotent and merciful, God is also just.

Epicurus Riddle: The Problem of Evil

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: GBP/JPY

Some other words from that same god.


Do as i say or i will punish you and your entire line. Don’t eat shell fish or i will burn you forever. Women are beneath you, don’t let them do things or else, i’ll blame all of you. Gays should be killed, anyone who doesn’t kill gays is just as guilty as the gays. Don’t wear two kinds of fabric or i’ll kill everyone with earthquakes. You can own and beat slaves as long as they don’t die within a few days. If a donkey talks to you, you should listen to it or else. If snakes tell you something, even if they are telling you the truth, don’t listen to them. Kill babies when i tell you too. Kill anybody when i tell you too. If someone tells you i’m not real, kill them.

One must surely believe in the subject
of so much hate constantly.

originally posted by: randyvs

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: GBP/JPY

Some other words from that same god.


Do as i say or i will punish you and your entire line. Don’t eat shell fish or i will burn you forever. Women are beneath you, don’t let them do things or else, i’ll blame all of you. Gays should be killed, anyone who doesn’t kill gays is just as guilty as the gays. Don’t wear two kinds of fabric or i’ll kill everyone with earthquakes. You can own and beat slaves as long as they don’t die within a few days. If a donkey talks to you, you should listen to it or else. If snakes tell you something, even if they are telling you the truth, don’t listen to them. Kill babies when i tell you too. Kill anybody when i tell you too. If someone tells you i’m not real, kill them.

One must surely believe in the subject
of so much hate constantly.

Are these things in the bible or not?

I don’t need to hate anything to point out how ridiculous the claims in this book are.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I didn't dispute anything you commonly use
out of context.

Nor did I refer to your obvious hate as
somethimg you need.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Woodcarver

I didn't dispute anything you commonly use
out of context.

Nor did I refer to your obvious hate as
somethimg you need.

So these claims are in the bible. You just prefer to ifnore them.

a reply to: Kharron

1. If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful. 2. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good. 3. If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?

1 -God does prevent evil. He created evil.
2 - No God is not just good as you understand the word good.
3- God is both willing and able to prevent evil. Hoe else can you learn?

Let's say he gives cancer to a couple's 3 year old daughter, in order to test their faith. Their faith is tested and the daughter dies. Their faith is shaken up and they never recover from it. They both now die without Jesus in their hearts and therefore go to hell. So God took a perfectly good family who may have been destined for heaven, killed a child and doomed the parents to eternity of hell. For what? If he is omnipotent then he should have known how it would turn out, right? And if he did not and just caused pain and mayhem, is he good?

Did God do something like that or did you imagine that He does things like that?