Hate Speech Free Speech or Censorship

Note to Mods: Not sure if this is the right place to put this, if this is in the wrong location please may you kindly move it, or let me know where it should go and I'll post it there instead.


Back in 2013 Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller were barred from entering the UK

[source: BBC Source: Spencer and Geller Banned from UK ]

Excerpt:

Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer co-founded anti-Muslim group Stop Islamization of America. They were due to speak at an English Defence League march in Woolwich, where Drummer Lee Rigby was killed. A government spokesman said individuals whose presence "is not conducive to the public good" could be excluded by the home secretary.

And most recently Martin Sellner, Brittany Pettibone and Lauren Southern have been barred entry into the United Kingdom.

[Source: Sellner and Pettibone barred from UK ]

Now, I do not necessarily agree with their views, in my honest opinion "Generation Identity" is a sketchy group, I do not know much about them, however I am aware of their militaristic style training camps, however, if we allow radical preachers to travel into Britain and give speeches in schools and mosques and madras' and wherever else, then is it not hypocritical to ban Spencer, Geller, Pettibone, Sellner and Southern?

Most of these people are either Authors or Journalists, it seems as if people have been deemed incapable of making up their own minds about their political views so therefore your government is preventing you from having to.

Lauren Southern was held under the Terrorism Act 2000 and then barred from the UK because her entry would not be "Conducive to the public good", which is the exact quote used for Spencer, Geller, Pettibone and Sellner also.

[Source: Laur en Southern Detained in Calais ]

According to Lauren she was banned because of Racism, she distributed fake "LGBTq for Islam" as a "social experiment" due to posters she saw saying Jesus is Gay, is Trans, is LBGTq
The posters she distributed said "Allah is gay, Allah is Trans, Allah is all of us" and she was asked to remove them because of the backlash she would receive due to that, she says she just wanted to point out the double standard.

[source: [url=http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/03/12/allah-is-queer-lgbt-for-islam-read-the-racist-leaflets-that-got-lauren-southern-banned-from-britain/][/u rl]

The UK Authorities are accusing Southern of being a "Christian Extremist"

The timing of this seems suspicious because a few days ago British Newspapers reported on Britain's "Worst Ever" Child sex abuse scandal in Telford where Mid Eastern immigrants groomed, raped and tortured almost 1000 children since the 1980's.

The Mirror’s 18-month investigation into the child sex slavery revealed “abuse on unprecedented levels,” as well as continuous attempts by British authorities to hide abusers’ Middle Eastern background “for fear of ‘racism.’” One 13-year-old victim pulled out of the investigation because she “didn’t feel she was being emotionally supported” by police. Families of victims were regularly tortured and killed, as when abuser Azhar Ali Mehmood set fire to the Lowe family house in 2000. Fear of reprisal against families kept countless other victims silent and obedient.

The UK decided to ban them from entering due to the tension between communities and thought this would rub a certain percentage of the population the wrong way if they were to speak at an event or interview someone who is anti-Islamist.

All forms of speech and expression are under siege by this current conservative government, Theresa May is piling pressure on social media companies to censor "hate speech".

Martin Sellner was due to give a speech on freedom of speech in the speakers corner in London however he was banned from entering the UK.

Martin was served Home Office papers explaining Generation Identity “is viewed in the UK as a right wing organisation”, and alleging that Sellner’s planned speech was “likely to insight (sic) tensions between local communities”.

Geert Wilders is also banned from entering the UK

All of these people are vocal critics of Islam I think, and it's seeming more and more likely that "blasphemy laws" are being actively considered by the UK government.

With Right Wing being such a sweeping term, ordinary people are being tied in with neo nazi's, white supremacists, racists and bigots for opposing certain theological and/or political viewpoints.

The discussion of these theological or political viewpoints are being prohibited and in western democracy where we value freedom of speech above all else all of us are particularly quiet like we're desensitized to it.

Surely with "Political Correctness" being all the rage these days,
With labels being all the rage surely "Right Wing Extremism" shouldn't have such a broad brush.
Looking at the Southern Poverty Law Center website's "Hate Map"
They are only tracking "Right Wing" extremism, when surely left-wing extremism exists also.

With populist movements it seems identity politics followed behind it, and if you attack an idea people view it as an attack on everyone who has that idea instead of discussion.

Threats of death or violence are never acceptable and should not be shared, however if you criticize any aspect of Islam whether your viewpoint is backed by fact or fiction you will be viewed as a racist, a bigot or an extremist.

And you could be barred from entering another country due to expressing your beliefs or reciting someone elses beliefs about a religion.

Yet you are free to criticize Christianity, Judaism and many other religious doctrine, this is how it appears to me.

Cyber-bullying is a serious problem, people are being targeted and threatened by groups of trolls attracted to large social media following.
Using a platform to encourage others to belittle and threaten people is abhorrent, so I understand why some things can't slide as free speech.

However people seem to take criticism on their beliefs as a personal attack on themselves
Whatever happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

There is a lot of pressure on Social Media companies to curb the rise of right wing "hate speech" and "fake news", especially from the UK Conservative Government and in France, Theresa May has said she wants to make internet companies legally liable for not removing "extremist content" responsibly.

Youtube have announced they will flag "conspiracy theory" video's with additional information from Wikipedia in an effort to tackle disinformation on it's platform.

The feature will "at first" focus on "well known" conspiracy theories that have significant debate on youtube for example video's suggesting Nasa's moon landing is a hoax.

They plan to show excepts from Wikipedia in a window next to the video information showing information about the event.


What say you ATS?

Should people be barred entry for their political/ideological beliefs, should people be censored or prosecuted for having certain views,
What has caused this shift and why are we allowing this to happen?
What speech is hate speech?

a reply to: zGrimReapah

Well it is England c1750 again.......I dont think they were banned because they were anti Muslim.....

Its because they are of "White Europeans" ancestry.

The UK has made it quite clear, they dont want any more White European Natives living there anymore.......
Damn, they tried in the 1600s-1900s to get rid of them, for the term of their natural lives, to Virginia, and Botany Bay but the buggers either create great countries, or came back "Home"....How Dare They!!!

They should be aware, only dark, black, brown, Indians, Arabs, Africans etc are allowed in the UK these days....its only right you know, what?.

Eventually they will get rid of those pesky "white natives" and their ideas of freedom, "Gods", loyalty, King and Country and all that rubbish.

If only they had more boats in the UK!!...."Heave away, Haul Away, you'll here me sing, Bound for South Australia"!!

a reply to: gort51

I do not believe they were banned because the UK government is racially motivated against white people.

However a part of me believes it's a class thing, where they believe working class locals aren't intelligent enough to make up their own minds.

Theresa May is waging war against freedom of speech online and offline.

She plans to bring in legislation that holds companies accountable for comments it's users post online, if the company doesn't remove the post in time they will find the corporation that owns the site up to £50 Million.

By trying to punish and criminalize those using non-violent forms of expression and or communication it actively undermines any attempt at reasonable dialogue, you would have thought Britain would have learnt a lesson that censorship makes things worse from the IRA.
dialogue is a vital component of resolving conflict of all forms, if people will not talk to one another then neither "side" could fully understand what motivates the other
and leaves no reasonable form of conflict resolution other than the very thing they are trying to prevent which is violence and uprising.

This brexit deal will give more regulatory control of the internet to britain since it wont be held back by those pesky eu courts and their watchdogs, which means more censorship and prolonged silence and inaction to come.

it's simple, the UK is not america nor is free speech always protected in their country, we might be crazy enough to allow unrestrained free speech and other things but most other nations are not. honestly i say let people speak how they wish and learn the consequences to saying the wrong thing to the wrong people, social isolation is the best way to shut people down because it quickly shows them the reality of what the people actually think. when you restrict people too much they are likely to become rebellious, aggressive, paranoid, more manipulative and use that suppression to justify anything as "fighting the oppression".

if you have dangerous movements supported by hate then free speech only exposes a problem rather than creating one or making it worse, if you suppress free speech then hatred will merely spread in a more insidious manner that won't be noticed until it's too late to fix the problem.

a reply to: gort51

This is such a stupid post (ETA: the post I'm responding to lol). England's most recent Census in 2011 showed that a whopping 85-85% of its population are "white" (HERE & HERE).

And the UK has an even larger "white" percentage of its population. In 2014, the Office for National Statistics showed that 87.2% of people living in the UK were classified as White British (HERE).

And the last time I checked, the former British Empire was spread around the world and across a vast variety of cultures. This caused the English language and many aspects of British culture to be spread around the world, too. But once people from those former British colonies start traveling to their former colonial master, it suddenly becomes a problem? Screw that.

Citizens from British colonies fought to protect the UK and its territories during the World Wars and beyond, so they should have just as much of a right to visit the UK as anyone else. It's even more ironic when we look at the large amount of British nationals who currently live in or work in those former colonies right now.

In other words, the decision to block the bigots in the OP has nothing to do with their ethnicity and everything to do with their actions.

I think what is important to remember in the context of this thread is that the so called hate speech laws in the UK are not about being pro-muslim or anti-white, they are not designed to censor any one group of individuals but rather to prevent the proliferation of hateful speech and inciting tensions in our communities.

I think its important to remember that not all of these laws are applicable throughout the UK but in general laws like the Public Order Act (1986) or the Race and Religious Hatred Act are those which most people tend to be thinking of when they think of hate speech laws. However I think what is often forgotten that these same laws that they dismiss as being censorship are actually required. For example it was these laws along with the Terrorism Act (2006) that were used against radical Islamic extremists such as Abu Hamaza or groups like Al-Muhaijroun or Islam4UK. These laws have also been used against peadophiles spreading pamphlets arguing for underaged sex.

So I think firstly its important to dispel this myth that hate speech laws are about being pro-Islam and just about going after the right wing. It is important that our laws are used fairly, you cannot say on the one hand that you want the law used against extreme Muslim clerics yet on the other hand argue its wrong for another extreme to get a free pass because you agree with their politics.

Each year the UK Government releases a Report that gives a detailed breakdown of hate crimes committed. Racial hate crimes have almost doubled since 2011/2012 and have gone up almost 4 times in regards to religious hate in the same time frame but only a fraction result in criminal prosecution. Now not only that but we also have a growing problem with the right wing in the UK such as Thomas Mar who killed Jo Cox, just in the last few weeks we have had the "punish a Muslim" letters being sent out and Muslim MPs have reported they have had to contact the police regarding suspicious letters and last year we had some guy drive into a crowd outside a mosque.

So in that context the last thing I think we need is to let people like this into the country who are not coming in to try to fix problems in our communities but to stir up further hate. Its just not helpful. All this talk about the UK being anti-white is in my view quite frankly utter bollocks.

They were bigots and under UK law quite possibly racists so yeah, its fair to block them. I don't want people like this on the streets of the UK spouting more hate and encouraging more of this extreme behaviour that is causing some serious problems in this country.

The largest group of people banned from the UK either permanently or temporarily are related to Islamic terrorism.

The idea that right-wing white christians are been targeted by the UK government is ludicrous.

The Conservative UK government is right wing, generally anti immigration and overwhelmingly White and Christian. They are also very pro law & order therefore don't want idiotic bigots of any type causing public disorder.

a reply to: zGrimReapah

It's not just her, these freedoms are being removed all over the west, you guys, the Americans, us here in oz, it's not just the left and right that work together it's all the governments from the west, they are all a well oiled machine, we are being screwed and some are actually praising them for it.

a reply to: zGrimReapah

Say again, islamisation of what?

Are they serious or is it a weird form of satire? I mean... they must be aware that we're bombing the fck out of muslims for freedom and Christianity. Right?

Also, child sex rings are a very British tradition. Pick your own white powder noses, they're full of it.

How Thatcher’s Government Covered Up a VIP Pedophile Ring

a reply to: zGrimReapah

Why would Richard Spencer want to go to the UK anyway? The government has made it clear that he's not welcome. We should try to negotiate a trade. Their white people for our Islamics.

Glad I don't live in the UK. Enjoy the censorship! It's like V for Vendetta movie but instead of a right wing authoritarian government portrayed in the movie, it's a left wing government doing it.

Congrats.

originally posted by: WarPig1939
Glad I don't live in the UK. Enjoy the censorship! It's like V for Vendetta movie but instead of a right wing authoritarian government portrayed in the movie, it's a left wing government doing it.

Congrats.

The UK has right wing government. Which is still the least inaccurate part of your post.

a reply to: ScepticScot


Either way. It's your bed. Hope you all get curfew laws. I can almost guarantee it's coming the way the UK is going.


Just continue being the obedient slaves that the government needs you to be.

originally posted by: WarPig1939
a reply to: ScepticScot


Either way. It's your bed. Hope you all get curfew laws. I can almost guarantee it's coming the way the UK is going.


Just continue being the obedient slaves that the government needs you to be.

I can totally guarantee you are talking drivel.

a reply to: ScepticScot


We shall see!

There is no such thing as hate speech, it’s only speech you don’t like.

The UK wouldn’t let the two girls white women in, who thought Islam was an inferior religion. The bottom line was the UK said it would negatively impact the Muslin community. (You can debate if it would impact the Muslims because they are white, or probably more or the point women).

If the UK governemenert really meant what it said, then why would thebUKnket any atheist in? Someone who is saying Allah is not real. That would cause more issues in the community but that’s ok, because the UK gov is Ok with that speech

originally posted by: SocratesJohnson
There is no such thing as hate speech, it’s only speech you don’t like.

The UK wouldn’t let the two girls white women in, who thought Islam was an inferior religion. The bottom line was the UK said it would negatively impact the Muslin community. (You can debate if it would impact the Muslims because they are white, or probably more or the point women).

If the UK governemenert really meant what it said, then why would thebUKnket any atheist in? Someone who is saying Allah is not real. That would cause more issues in the community but that’s ok, because the UK gov is Ok with that speech

People can consider Islam an inferior religion to their hearts content. However its considered that their actions while in the UK are likely to provoke or incite public disorder then the UK is under no obligation to admit them.

You can learn just in conversing with UKers, the UK has forgotten what free speech is, why it matters, and what happens when you become censors.

a reply to: zGrimReapah

Censorship is the tool of cowards and tyrants.