What if Cain never sinned.

For this lesson we are taking the Bible as we did in the previous Threads if God is God why . . . . And assume that the Bible is true to itself and through that assumption, whether or not you believe it does not matter, and learn a Biblical lesson.

What happened before Gen 1:2 was the lifting up of Lucifer to usurp the Kingdom of God by taking authority that had been given him temporarily over the kingdom of heaven, a created kingdom that is on the earth Isa 14:12-13 and Ezk 28:13-15. That teaching was in an earlier thread I had made some time back.

So moving forward from the fall of Satan, the crown of the kingdom of heaven, centered on the earth was returned to God. And God goes to work to recreated the earth, to be habitable for what was going to be his crowing achievement, MAN. He does so in six 24 hour days that start at sundown to sunup. One the seventh God rested.

Now we all know the story that is recorded in Genesis 3 but lets talk about a what if. What if the newly created Man and his helpmeet Woman. Were never told to not eat of any tree and they took the commandment to go forth and multiply and have dominion over the earth. Two crowns were given Adam that sixth day the crown of the Kingdom of God, a spiritual Kingdom, and the crown of the Kingdom of Heaven, which is centered from the earth.

Adam remains in his perfect state (though untested) and he and his wife following the command of God populate the earth with their offspring. What would that Kingdom on the earth, the kingdom of Heaven look like. One there would be no birth pains for the women, al the animals would be in subjection to them. Allowing the front yard animals of our perfect couple made in the image of God to be lions, tigers, and bears, chickens and sheep and snakes all living in perfect harmony with one another. All Living extraordinarily long lives.

This is the perfect society every one of us has in our hearts, we dream of it and every kingdom since the fall Adam have longed for this perfect golden age where all men and beast live in perfect harmony singing Kum-by-yah. But all it has led to since his fall is death, hospital beds and graveyards for 6,000 years. However I digress.

We were talking about what if Adam did not fall and he and his wonderful wife and had children and grand children and all we on perfectly with both kingdoms the kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven prospering and full of glory. Ah what bliss it would have been.

But take note if Adam and Eve had obeyed god’s command to populate by the 1929AD there would have been a population of 5 people for every square metre of land on the face fo the earth. Is there a problem, Well of course not remember Adam is holding the crown of the kingdom of heaven though centered here on earth the heavens themselves are at his command so his creation would not have to be limited to stay on the earth they could inhabit other planets and star system. This was God perfect plan for man to live perfect lives in the heavens throughout the universe and this is man’s plan today.

But unfortunately God’s plan was interrupted by the serpent. The First being Created and From him a helpmeet, a woman. Who the serpent went to her to tempt her, Why in her was the inherent view of herself as the subservient to her husband, the second created, thereby in her heart believed she was a second class citizen. Eve was truly the first suffragette, she is the leader of the modern Feminist movement. Every modern man and woman desires intelligence through education today thinking still it will lead to enlightenment and tranquillity.

But it was not just wisdom she craved but away to be like the gods (Gen3:5 look you will see the small “g”). She knew of these sons of God, even Adam was called a son of God, but these sons of God were the ones who sang when the first creations of the Earth and the Heaven (depth in Prov 8:22-24) were made, it is some of these sons of God who today have fallen because of the leadership of the fifth cherub that covereth (Ezk 28:13-15), Eve saw as an opportunity to be like the god’s of old, Jupiter, Zeus, ISIS, Diana, Lucifer et al.. She ate and then looking to her husband, with red stained lips, reaching out to him the fruit which was forbidden them, and asked in love for one another that plot of every love story since, “will you die for me”. Adam took of the fruit because of the love he had for his wife and did eat, at that very moment spiritually he died, he gave up his crown to the Kingdom of God to The LORD God Almighty because of his sin, and gave up his earthy crown of the Kingdom of Heaven to Satan, to whom this day is called the “god of this world, the prince and power of the air”.

Thus bringing in Death, war (see the first between Cain and Able) and thousands more since then. Man still has that desire to live in that utopian world that was within his grasp if only he had not sinned. Since that time men have been trying to bring in that kingdom, the first of these was before the Flood but one thing stands out as it does today there are both giants in the land and violence throughout the land of men. Then after the flood the fist thing we see is a man trying to get back the crowns he lost by uniting the people and building a tower to reach unto the heavens. The tower of babel.

Since then we have countless small tribal wars, major conquest of men from Nimrod to Hitler, and since 1947 at least 200 wars. This is man trying to bring in the kingdom of Heaven without God in the picture and without perfection we can never bring about perfection because were are not perfect were fall short of the glory of God. God will not allow us to inhabit the planets with our sinful flesh taking our earthly battles and then making them interplanetary battles and propagate a universe full of sinful men that only war and die.

You see no matter how hard we try will well never achieve that which men long for in their hearts and harmonious society without war with out illness, without pain, and without death. It will never happen unless we do it on God’s terms through the one who has both crowns right now, Jesus Christ.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

assume that the Bible is true to itself and through that assumption, whether or not you believe it does not matter, and learn a Biblical lesson. 

And by doing this we can all throw away the only truly useful lesson from the Bible ...that humans have the free will to think whatever they wish, and question whatever they wish.

Let's examine this properly.

Well, Cain would not have killed Abel if god would have accepted his offering of veggies, but god wanted meat. So, if Cain would have let the animals eat the veggies and ate the meat, there would not have been any conflict in the first place.

Plant defense chemistry can make a person sick, or can interfere with reasoning and cause inappropriate psychological effects. This chemistry is in most plants, with some being stronger or working a different way and that is why we have medicines, most medicines mimic these plant chemistries. But if you eat the wrong veggies or take the wrong medicine for your problem, it can make it worse.

So, I have a suspicion that the plants that Cain was growing and eating actually contributed to him killing Abel by messing up his thinking.

Now go and eat your veggies so we can throw insults at each other. California is compromised.

Maybe the serpent was a caterpillar or a worm in an apple?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

But genesis is a compilation of multiple culture’s stories being sieved through time and geographical immigration. Only a few of the stories were chosen to represent the Roman idea of what they deemed a worthy campaign to ensnare the minds of the people that they were brutally in charge of. The story was written many different ways, By many different cultures. It can easily be shown that the Romans picked and chose which of these stories made it into the modern version of the Bible. Before that time, It is easy to follow the Etymology of the Many translations of the modern Bible, All the way back to the Sumerian enuma elish. People who had very little understanding of how the world works, and literally no understanding of the scientific methods that are used to come to an actual understanding of reality.

Why should we suspend our disbelief so that you can push a known false narrative that doesn’t even closely match what we understand as the mythology of Christianity?

A better question is, what would the world believe if Rome had never Set out on this campaign?

a reply to: rickymouse

Do you think Cain had reefer madness?

Drugs are bad, M’okay

originally posted by: Atsbhct
a reply to: ChesterJohn

assume that the Bible is true to itself and through that assumption, whether or not you believe it does not matter, and learn a Biblical lesson. 

And by doing this we can all throw away the only truly useful lesson from the Bible ...that humans have the free will to think whatever they wish, and question whatever they wish.

False lesson I would say. In a deterministic reality (if we are simply going to take the Bible at face value, but I can throw in science), there can be no free will. You can't rationalize an omipotent/omniscient being knowing everything, the past/present/future, with a free will reality. If there is free will, the Architect cannot know the future and therefore does not fit the definition of an omnipotent/omniscient being.

This construct is a ride, prison or learning experiment, imho. We can't know which simply because one would have to be outside the system (like God or the Architect of this virtual reality) to understand its purpose and ultimately its evolution.

Just remember that in a deterministic reality, everything, me and you, are recycled. We're coming back, our prison terms are infinite and anchored to a virtual reality we can't really understand. So smile for the good times your meat puppet experiences :-)

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: Atsbhct

The creator gave you free Will, not religion or any religious text.

a reply to: threeeyesopen

Who are you calling the creator?

originally posted by: SocratesJohnson
a reply to: rickymouse

Do you think Cain had reefer madness?

Drugs are bad, M’okay

Probably a reaction to cruciferous veggies, that can really effect some people with the porphyrias. Also some veggies contain chemistry like benzos and others have valium like chemistry. Now, some people do good on those veggies, others do not. A food that calms a person can actually make some people nuts or have some negative side effects if they are naturally calm. All mushrooms are psychotropic to a certain extent, and even aging things like meats creates tyramines which are most definitely psychoactive. We are so used to this kind of stuff we cannot even comprehend they are effecting our thinking. People on Heroin actually begin making more enzymes to break the chemistry down, and when they do not have it, they go the opposite way, way past normal the other way because those enzymes are taking all the opiods out of the body. People can also get addicted to plant chemistry if they can boost their detox enzymes too high. The effect of the microbes is important too, veggies can be turned into alcohol by microbes. Milk can be turned into an antibiotic with chemistry that boosts dopamine when aged. Peas naturally have lots of free glutamate in them.

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Atsbhct
a reply to: ChesterJohn

assume that the Bible is true to itself and through that assumption, whether or not you believe it does not matter, and learn a Biblical lesson. 

And by doing this we can all throw away the only truly useful lesson from the Bible ...that humans have the free will to think whatever they wish, and question whatever they wish.

False lesson I would say. In a deterministic reality (if we are simply going to take the Bible at face value, but I can throw in science), there can be no free will. You can't rationalize an omipotent/omniscient being knowing everything, the past/present/future, with a free will reality. If there is free will, the Architect cannot know the future and therefore does not fit the definition of an omnipotent/omniscient being.

This construct is a ride, prison or learning experiment, imho. We can't know which simply because one would have to be outside the system (like God or the Architect of this virtual reality) to understand its purpose and ultimately its evolution.

Just remember that in a deterministic reality, everything, me and you, are recycled. We're coming back, our prison terms are infinite and anchored to a virtual reality we can't really understand. So smile for the good times your meat puppet experiences :-)

Cheers - Dave

Jesus Christ!!! What a depressing worldview. Reality is a prison? This is clearly a spin-off from Christian mythology with an emphasis on “humans are evil without an omnipresent watch dog” What brought you to this conclusion?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Atsbhct
a reply to: ChesterJohn

assume that the Bible is true to itself and through that assumption, whether or not you believe it does not matter, and learn a Biblical lesson. 

And by doing this we can all throw away the only truly useful lesson from the Bible ...that humans have the free will to think whatever they wish, and question whatever they wish.

False lesson I would say. In a deterministic reality (if we are simply going to take the Bible at face value, but I can throw in science), there can be no free will. You can't rationalize an omipotent/omniscient being knowing everything, the past/present/future, with a free will reality. If there is free will, the Architect cannot know the future and therefore does not fit the definition of an omnipotent/omniscient being.

This construct is a ride, prison or learning experiment, imho. We can't know which simply because one would have to be outside the system (like God or the Architect of this virtual reality) to understand its purpose and ultimately its evolution.

Just remember that in a deterministic reality, everything, me and you, are recycled. We're coming back, our prison terms are infinite and anchored to a virtual reality we can't really understand. So smile for the good times your meat puppet experiences :-)

Cheers - Dave

Jesus Christ!!! What a depressing worldview. Reality is a prison? This is clearly a spin-off from Christian mythology with an emphasis on “humans are evil without an omnipresent watch dog” What brought you to this conclusion?

45 years of physics and engineering. It seems very simple, use the "KISS" method. And honestly, it's not very depressing, a ride is just a ride and what is the point in fearing death when it is simply a state transition? Why worry if you know you are coming back. We do our assigned roles, there is no free will or individual control, can you imagine how chaotic this reality would be if there was free will? Enjoy the ride, we are just riders on a bus and we can't change seats unless we get off first.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Atsbhct
a reply to: ChesterJohn

assume that the Bible is true to itself and through that assumption, whether or not you believe it does not matter, and learn a Biblical lesson. 

And by doing this we can all throw away the only truly useful lesson from the Bible ...that humans have the free will to think whatever they wish, and question whatever they wish.

False lesson I would say. In a deterministic reality (if we are simply going to take the Bible at face value, but I can throw in science), there can be no free will. You can't rationalize an omipotent/omniscient being knowing everything, the past/present/future, with a free will reality. If there is free will, the Architect cannot know the future and therefore does not fit the definition of an omnipotent/omniscient being.

This construct is a ride, prison or learning experiment, imho. We can't know which simply because one would have to be outside the system (like God or the Architect of this virtual reality) to understand its purpose and ultimately its evolution.

Just remember that in a deterministic reality, everything, me and you, are recycled. We're coming back, our prison terms are infinite and anchored to a virtual reality we can't really understand. So smile for the good times your meat puppet experiences :-)

Cheers - Dave

Jesus Christ!!! What a depressing worldview. Reality is a prison? This is clearly a spin-off from Christian mythology with an emphasis on “humans are evil without an omnipresent watch dog” What brought you to this conclusion?

45 years of physics and engineering. It seems very simple, use the "KISS" method. And honestly, it's not very depressing, a ride is just a ride and what is the point in fearing death when it is simply a state transition? Why worry if you know you are coming back. We do our assigned roles, there is no free will or individual control, can you imagine how chaotic this reality would be if there was free will? Enjoy the ride, we are just riders on a bus and we can't change seats unless we get off first.

Cheers - Dave

45 years of physics and engineering? That’s great! so you understand the importance of evidence to support a worldview such as this? Like physical evidence? Not anecdotal? And since you understand the importance of this I’m sure you would enjoy enlightening the world to this evidence? Everybody gather around, Bob’s your uncle is going to prove that God is real.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Lucifer isn’t mentioned in the genesis story.
The Bible never says she ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil because she felt inferior.

The snake didn’t lie.

How could she crave to be like “the gods of old” when she was supposed to be around since day six, these God’s were 5 days old?

God’s plan was so solid it only worked for 5 days?

Man doesn’t have a desire to live in a utopian world, man desires to live in a modern world, if you want to go live in the forest and eat potatoes, nothing is stopping you.

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
Just remember that in a deterministic reality, everything, me and you, are recycled. We're coming back, our prison terms are infinite and anchored to a virtual reality we can't really understand.

I suspect that too.

It explains why some people have some weird memories left by their past life.

It's difficult to explain.. Somehow, sometime, somewhere, it's a feeling like you have been there and done that before. It's like dejavu.

originally posted by: fatkid
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Lucifer isn’t mentioned in the genesis story.
The Bible never says she ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil because she felt inferior.

The snake didn’t lie.

How could she crave to be like “the gods of old” when she was supposed to be around since day six, these God’s were 5 days old?

God’s plan was so solid it only worked for 5 days?

Man doesn’t have a desire to live in a utopian world, man desires to live in a modern world, if you want to go live in the forest and eat potatoes, nothing is stopping you.

I agree. It makes no sense.
But then someone will come up and accuse me of having lack of comprehension skill.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Who was Cain's wife? Where did she from? Why is god not telling the creation of other human like Cain's wife? Since she appear suddenly and nowhere, maybe she was sinless compare to Eve?

Edit: If Cain's wife was one of Eve's daughter, Cain's sister, then why did Genesis 4:16 mentioned Cain knew his wife after he wandered east to the land of Nod? It make no sense, Cain would have known his sister before he was casted away. And why would his sister-would-be wife be in the land of Nod, instead, with the rest of Adam's family? Did she wandered too?

a reply to: ChesterJohn
OK, I'm not sure I follow you.

Your narrative is less cohesive.

First, your title is about What if Cain never sinned. Apart from a sentence or two, You barely touch that subject.

Then you went lengthy with retelling Genesis. You ask what if Adam and Eve obeyed God's command.

But then, your narrative seem to shift about what happen since Genesis which you concluded as, it's useless to work for the perfect society unless according to god's term.

So mind my comprehension skill, what is this thread actually about?

Is it about Cain never sinned?

Or about Adam and Eve never fall?

Or about the perfect society by god's term?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

A better question is, what would the world believe if Rome had never Set out on this campaign?

Probably more individual mythical Christians sects, each with their own gospels.

Gnosticism was prevalent during the early churches. The bible itself was a product of gnostic belief, example trinity.

a reply to: Woodcarver

your opinion have you ever thought the opposite wold be he truth? Maybe hose other cultures actually got it from Noah and his children as they moved out from the mixing of the languages by God under Nimrod.

Moses has special revelation given his for the writing of the first five books of the Bible.

I am very sorry every one I pasted the wrong title on this thread it should have Read

What is Adam had never sinned

thanks to those who pointed it out. Yes that would make it a lot less clear. This is about Adam and Eve not sinning.

I am only human and am still prone to mistakes.