Debunking Flat Earth and the Hollow Earth

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Well there you go...

I'm not sure I know how to feel about this. My girlfriend has indicated that it's a sign from the overlords that we need to get really drunk and play grand theft auto on mixed drinks made with rum and raspberries.

This sounds better than working on the four wheeler that lives in our kitchen currently so I think I'm going to submit to the will of the overlords.

... Maybe this is why I argue with flat earthers on the internet. I must seek out the hate discontent and incessant bickering most people get from their relationships and home life in others because I don't have these things at home.

Forget using Science to prove anything. Science is cheifly based upon maths and maths is a flawed system; algebra, minus numbers etc. There are much better methods of understanding numbers used elsewhere.

What is causing the sun to rotate above a flat Earth? Why must is produce seasons? Why bother with pretend stars?

We are under illusions, that is a given. Don't worry about it

a reply to: Beyond Creation

Yeah screw science and math!

Life was so much better before them!

When you could die from a splinter, if you survived the first 2 years of your life at all, and even the rich had to crap in a bucket!

That's totally the life for me!

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Lol i overlooked and actually wanted to say horizontal radius at the equator

originally posted by: Beyond Creation
Forget using Science to prove anything. Science is cheifly based upon maths and maths is a flawed system; algebra, minus numbers etc. There are much better methods of understanding numbers used elsewhere.

What is causing the sun to rotate above a flat Earth? Why must is produce seasons? Why bother with pretend stars?

We are under illusions, that is a given. Don't worry about it

Well now I see your problem science isn't based on math its based on observation. Science at its most basic is when you do this heres what happens. Math is a tool we can use in our attempt at describing physical reality,however math does not always represent physical reality . Math trys to use logic to understand and often prove relationships between quantities and objects which may relate to no real phenomena. Science must be empirical, meaning it must be based on observations of nature, and it must be potentially falsifiable by new observations of nature. This is why in science you can say if we observe this it shows we are wrong. Thats why with flat earth the debate isn't if the earth flat it is what would we need to prove it was flat.

Now heres the problem people don't understand this distinction at all. For example if the earth was indeed flat we would need to be able to explain why planes cant just fly off the edge. We would need to explain how plate tectonics would work on a flat earth. We would need to know whats under the flat earth and what keeps it there. We would need to explain how we see stars and planets. I can keep going but you get the idea. Arguing against something does not prove something else in science you see this far to often where people attack science by trying to prove an observation wrong. Problem is the observation isn't wrong our conclusion may be wrong but then an alternative needs be provided.

So if the earth is flat you need to provide observations in the real world to bolster this claim. For example you could send a plane over the edge or laugh a probe to the sun showing its a lot closer then we thought. Maybe get video of the giant turtle that holds up the earth?

originally posted by: Beyond Creation
Forget using Science to prove anything. Science is cheifly based upon maths and maths is a flawed system; algebra, minus numbers etc. There are much better methods of understanding numbers used elsewhere.

What is causing the sun to rotate above a flat Earth? Why must is produce seasons? Why bother with pretend stars?

We are under illusions, that is a given. Don't worry about it

Math is not required when using observations and critical thought in understanding that the earth is spheroid. Ancient people (such as the ancient Greeks) devised that the earth was round using empirical evidence and logic.

Granted, the ancient Greeks used math to calculate the size of Earth, but not necessarily its shape.

a reply to: dragonridr

The way I explain the connection between math and science is that math is one of the tools we use to do science.

When used for science it helps us to draw meaningful conclusions find connections and make predictions based on our observations.

Math can just as easily be used for art, accounting, numerology, yes deception too, and even mysticism related pursuits as it can for science!

Why?

Because math is a TOOL.

How and what we choose to do with a given tool is entirely up to the person or application.

One of the primary reasons we use math heavily in science is the same as the reason we use tools like microscopes.

It helps improve the fidelity of our observations conclusions and predictions beyond what can be achieved solely with our individual senses and cognitive abilities.

Humans have limitations, we employ tools to open up vistas we wouldn't otherwise have access to.

This is the same reason why we use the written and spoken word in science. Doing so allows us to share information and communicate concepts and observations in an easily understood way. The written and spoken word can be used to deceive too, but we still use them in science.

a reply to: roguetechie

I would agree with all of that, though I would argue that the tool itself is neutral. In the end it requires the interpretation of a person to decide whether tell analyses undertaken have any relevance to the subject undertaken. The whole mechanism of peer review is aimed at making sure those analyses have been undertaken appropriately and interpreted properly.

a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

Yes I definitely agree there too.

However I was trying to keep it to a very straight forward mechanical we use this tool for the following reasons explanation. It's also why I made it very clear that math, writing, and speaking can all be used as tools for deception. The idea was to be very honest and try to convey the concept in a neutral manner.

I get the impression that some people become flat earthers because they feel betrayed, deceived, and ultimately discarded by the modern technological and academic knowledge based world.

Call it a hunch, or the wild ass shot in the dark guess it really is, but I decided that maybe going further back to some very basic first principles level stuff could be an approach worth trying. By using the tool definition and explanation maybe some common ground can be established and we can then talk about why you use a hammer not a rock to pound nails. You can also a rock or a hammer to bludgeon your neighbors to death too, but most people prefer to use them for nails. These are inherently agreeable statements.

Hell if it will actually help people see the truth I'm perfectly willing to go through each and every math formula etc they want, research the proofs for them, and go through each formula and tool step by step up to and including figuring out how to use them deceptively and relating that information too just so someone can feel confident enough in their ability to spot deception and check other's work that they can do the steps they need to in order to prove to themselves that the earth isn't flat.

It probably seems odd that I'd be willing to do this stuff at all, but seeing the results of that survey where a third of people under 25 indicated at least some level of doubt about the Earth being round has been eating at me.

originally posted by: roguetechie

Hell if it will actually help people see the truth I'm perfectly willing to go through each and every math formula etc they want, research the proofs for them, and go through each formula and tool step by step up to and including figuring out how to use them deceptively and relating that information too just so someone can feel confident enough in their ability to spot deception and check other's work that they can do the steps they need to in order to prove to themselves that the earth isn't flat.

roguetechie, I’ve tried this approach and found few takers. Perhaps you’ll have better luck than I have. I’ve recommended to flatEarthers that they stop relying on the clipped analysis of online forums, and go take courses in the subject matters of their claims, in settings where visual aids, qualified textbooks, hours of time and dedicated instructors could really flesh things out for them, to whatever detail they can conceive—including mathematical formulae. But while I’ve encountered a few individuals who are open to better information, despite being their under-educated or intellectually-limited to begin with, most flatEarthers seem dead set in their ways, and giddily so. They’re emotionally attached to their cause, they dismiss centuries-old knowledge simply because it’s the “official story,” and they so enjoy the thrill of a groundswell which they believe will shake the foundations of society, that having to re-embrace a globe Earth would be a huge letdown. To them, we globe-ists are unwelcome guests trying to piss in their punchbowl.

a reply to: Rollie83

That's pretty much my experience too, but whenever I encounter one who is willing to play ball I try to do whatever I can to give them as much help as they're willing to take.

originally posted by: noonebutme
a reply to: Hyperboles

All of it is easy to debunk: just open a high school science text book ad read up on physics an geology.

But seeing as how the believers of this horsesh*t are idiots, there's no point in arguing. You can show them live NASA rocket launches, videos from space, etc -- they will always believe the earth is flat and everything is a conspiracy.

The Earth isn't hollow, at least not in the Journey to the Centre of the Earth way. I don't doubt there are many caves and so on, but no mini sun, dinosaurs or reptiloids.

People are just bored but mainly, people are just really, really stupid.

"People are just bored" sums it up perfectly

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: turbonium1


who cares when you're flying 30,000 feet above sea level...

You're talking simple adjustments any pilot could make, but unnecessary due to these things we call computers

Computers didn't exist for decades after flight began, so you can stop using that excuse.

Not that it ever was an excuse, though.

originally posted by: noonebutme

originally posted by: turbonium1
Insulting people over and over again, for doubting Earth might not be a gigantic ball?!?

Yes. People who believe the Earth is flat, or even question if it is spherical, in the 21st Century is borderline retardation and SHOULD be mocked, because they obviously did not attend basic high school.

There is NOTHING constructive, new or insightful to be gained by discussing if the Earth is a globe. You can argue it's your opinion all you want, but it's a wrong opinion and a very, very stupid opinion. If that is your opinion, of course.

Schools tell you what to think, you believe it, as if they know everything.

If you tried using your own brain for once, you'd know better.

But you don't think for yourself, obviously.

Sad.

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: turbonium1


who cares when you're flying 30,000 feet above sea level...

You're talking simple adjustments any pilot could make, but unnecessary due to these things we call computers

Computers didn't exist for decades after flight began, so you can stop using that excuse.

Not that it ever was an excuse, though.

What excuse... computers arn't needed

Thats why we have pilots... you know, the people that fly planes

Schools tell you what to think, you believe it, as if they know everything.

Yes... and apparently you've never attended...

Your schooling obviously consists of youtube, and the flat earth society...

a reply to: turbonium1

No actually school really does teach you how to think while also giving you a "starter pack" of useful information and etc about the world which should in theory be enough to of a start for you to successfully pick up things as you go even without further formal education Should you not attend college.

That is the actual idea behind a cost free and mandatory primary education system. This is why things like standardized testing, required credit amounts divided by subject, and etc exist and are used. The idea is to teach you just enough about a wide enough array of subjects that you are able to function in society, economically trainable for entry level employment, and expose you to just enough of a large enough variety of subjects that you can start developing an idea of what you want to be when you grow up based on what interested you and you're good at.

People like you always act like you never got explanations of why we can be confident x historical event is true. You also take it even further and act like there was no time or attention given to conclusively proving why things like math formulas or laws of physics etc are true!

But deep down you have to know that's a lie because they did show and teach you mathematical proofs and you did do experiments in science class where the whole point was to show you that, hey this stuff really works!

Yeah, they didn't do it with every little thing but remember what I said above about teaching you just enough so that you can in theory take over and learn things on your own?

They showed all of us enough in math and science class to not only give us reasonable levels of faith in things they didn't prove in-depth as well as the methodologies and skills you need to verify things yourself!

Yet you guys want to throw out the baby with the bathwater suddenly because you BELIEVE something doesn't make sense when you REFUSE to use the methodologies you were also taught to discern truth for yourself!

originally posted by: amazing
I got it.

Let's handle the flat earth and hallow earth debate like we do climate change.

Scientists have amassed so much data proving the earth is actually round and not hallow that..."F scientists! Their all on George Soros payroll and are lying to us!" "Al Gore is just in it for the money...look how big his house is!"

LOL

What happened to 'global warming'?

Oh, right, they call it 'climate change' now!

Colder than normal weather is simply called 'climate change'. The very instant it''s a little bit warmer than normal, it suddenly changes into 'global warming'!!

Because, as we were all taught at schools, ships vanishing from sight is 'proof' of Earth's curvature!

How could ships sail beyond our view, if the Earth was flat? Earth must be curved, a sphere, being that every other 'planet' in our solar system is a sphere, too!

When they found stars which moved differently above the Earth, when compared to all the other stars above us, and/or perhaps a star seems to be brighter, compared to most stars, at certain times - that was a star of distinction.

All of the planets were stars. The observation of several more noticeable, distinct, of those stars, in comparison, somehow transformed into perfectly round ball-shaped objects!!

Who really could believe they saw Mars, Neptune, Pluto, etc., to such a degree? To suggest they are all those perfectly shaped spheres, at all, is totally absurd.

And they show paintings, of how the planets look???

How stupid it is, that anyone should doubt paintings of Neptune??


Planes cannot fly level to a sphere, buddy. A sphere has no level surface.

Do you think planes can fly level to a curved surface?

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: turbonium1

No actually school really does teach you how to think while also giving you a "starter pack" of useful information and etc about the world which should in theory be enough to of a start for you to successfully pick up things as you go even without further formal education Should you not attend college.

That is the actual idea behind a cost free and mandatory primary education system. This is why things like standardized testing, required credit amounts divided by subject, and etc exist and are used. The idea is to teach you just enough about a wide enough array of subjects that you are able to function in society, economically trainable for entry level employment, and expose you to just enough of a large enough variety of subjects that you can start developing an idea of what you want to be when you grow up based on what interested you and you're good at.

People like you always act like you never got explanations of why we can be confident x historical event is true. You also take it even further and act like there was no time or attention given to conclusively proving why things like math formulas or laws of physics etc are true!

But deep down you have to know that's a lie because they did show and teach you mathematical proofs and you did do experiments in science class where the whole point was to show you that, hey this stuff really works!

Yeah, they didn't do it with every little thing but remember what I said above about teaching you just enough so that you can in theory take over and learn things on your own?

They showed all of us enough in math and science class to not only give us reasonable levels of faith in things they didn't prove in-depth as well as the methodologies and skills you need to verify things yourself!

Yet you guys want to throw out the baby with the bathwater suddenly because you BELIEVE something doesn't make sense when you REFUSE to use the methodologies you were also taught to discern truth for yourself!

Schools mix reality with fantasy, all the time, and that's why it always works so smoothly.

History teaches about wars of the past, and specific events, which led up to the wars........

Nobody teaches you the truth about wars, what starts wars. How an 'event' is simply planned, plotted, and presented, to justify all wars.


They teach us that we humans have always fought, killed, and died, in wars.... because humans are inherently a warrior-species, with a primal instinct to fight.

That's absolute crap. A lie. Nonsense.


And you want me to believe in such crap?

a reply to: turbonium1

So humans don't like war?

I don't recall learning that we did in school... but Just look at the world around us...

What we do best is kill our own kind