The Bible Is All About Jesus Christ Being Exalted.

a reply to: Deetermined

So if you believe Paul’s revelations, why not Joseph Smith’s??

Or any other nut job claiming visions...

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Noinden

Give it up dude Jesus Christ is real and you will kneel before him and answer for every idle word that proceeds out of your mouth. For what comes out of the mouth is what is in the heart. That is your hatred for him.

Angry evangelism? That will get people’s attention. Why not just threaten to shoot people that don’t believe in Jesus.

originally posted by: Deetermined
All of those questions can be answered by the simple fact that Jesus was here in the flesh and had to rely on his higher self

His higher self?

I beg your pardon. Do you aware how illogical it sounds?

When Jesus prays to God, are you suggesting that Jesus is talking to himself? From my observation, only mentally disorder people talk to themselves. Surely God can't be that mad?

originally posted by: Deetermined
until such time that he died and shook off his flesh and limited knowledge.

Being mortal and limited knowledge is not the quality attributed to Bible's God.

originally posted by: Deetermined
How sincere would it be for God to come to earth to live and understand the life of a human if he still had all of his godly powers and knowledge?

How sincere?
None. God is omniscience according to Bible. He should already understanding the life of a human. There's no reason for Him to become flesh in order to understand human life He created by Himself.

originally posted by: Deetermined
You might want to ask yourself why Jesus told Philip that when he saw him (John 14:7-10), he had seen God

First of all, according to this reasoning, every believer would be the Father or God, since the spirit of God is in him. When Jesus sent out his twelve apostles, he told them: "For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you." (Matthew 10:20)

Should we assume from this that all of the apostles are the Father, since the spirit of the Father spoke in them?

And Jesus said: "Though you don't believe me, believe the works; that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38)

And he further said: "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father living in me does his works." (John 14:10)

Nevertheless, he also said: "In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." (John 14:20)

Are we to think that all of Jesus' disciples are Jesus since he said that he is in them, and that they are in him?

That would be silly. So be careful with John 14:7-10. There are more to it than just pointing out that sentences.



Secondly, No one has seen God.

1 Timothy 6:16
He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Exodus 33:20
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

1 John 4:12
No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.


Lastly, the word, "see" in John 14:7-10 derived from Greek's word "Horao" which can also mean "knowing" in english. Both "see" and "knowing" constitute different meaning.

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 3, 1986 printing, Zondervan, pp. 513, 515, 518, explains the meanings of horao.

"Horao" means "... become aware (Gen. 37:1). (b) figuratively it comes to be used of intellectual or spiritual perception .... It also means ... attend to, know or have experienced (Deut. 11:2), or be concerned about something (Gen. 37:14; Is. 5:12)." - p. 513. - - "Besides the general meaning of to know, horao and its derivatives can mean to obtain knowledge". - p. 515.

Professor Joseph H. Thayer (who was "the dean of New Testament scholars in America" - Dictionary of American Biography, Vol. IX) in his Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament ("a standard in the field") also defines horao with similar meanings and specifically tells us that John 14:7, 9 is in the category of "2. to see with the mind, to perceive, to KNOW."

In discussing this meaning of "horao," Thayer writes:

"to know God's will, 3 John 11; from the intercourse and influence of Christ to have come to see (know) God's majesty, saving purposes, and WILL, Jn. xiv. 7, 9". - p. 451, Baker Book House, 1984 printing.

"The danger of the Christian faith is that we may set up Jesus as a kind of secondary God. But Jesus himself insists that the things he said and the things he did did not come from his own initiative or his own power or his own knowledge but from God. His words were God's voice speaking to men; His deeds were God's power flowing through him to men. He was the channel by which God came to men."

- The Daily Study Bible Series: The Gospel of John, pp. 159, 161, 162, Vol. 2, The Westminster Press, 1975.

So there is no real reason to insist that John 14:7, 9 shows Jesus as being equally God with his Father. The probability is that, in harmony with the usage of the time, Jesus was merely saying that what he spoke came from God, and what he did is what God directed. He meant that understanding what he did and said was like knowing ("seeing") God* (as, in a similar sense, those who literally saw angels sent by God and speaking God's words were said to have "seen God"). Jesus is totally in harmony with ("one" with) the Father in purpose (see the ONE study paper) so that we can "see" the Father's will in Jesus.

"But ... God is invisible .... Whereas, on the contrary, God, the Father of Christ, is said to be seen, because `he who sees the Son,' he says, `sees also the Father.' This certainly would press us hard [to explain], were the expression not understood by us more correctly of understanding, and not of seeing. For he who has understood the Son will understand the Father also." - p. 277, vol. iv, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Eerdmans Publishing.

"Seen Me: Seen Father" - John 14:7-9

To summarize, John 14:7-10 isn't literally about "seeing" God physically. It's about understanding God in oneself.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Lol..

It’s funny that Christians will tell people that their god is going to kidnap their soul and torture it for all eternity If they don’t do what earth bound Christians tell them to..

Then claim that “Christianity is a non threatening religion of love!!”


It doesn’t get much more threatening than kidnapping and torturing people for all eternity. Lol


Historically you can tell how it would be a later addition..


Can you imagaine if you rode into a barbarian camp saying that??

You lose your head before you get off your horse lol..

That is definitely a dogma that came AFTER Christianity seized political power..

originally posted by: Deetermined
why Jesus calls himself the Alpha and Omega in the book of Revelation 22.

Revelation 22

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus is the one who is returning and judging, not God the Father.

God gave Jesus the Revelation.
Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated [it] by His angel to His bond-servant John, (NAS)

The apostle John, who received the revelation, bore witness to two separate beings.
Revelation 1:2
who bore witness to the word of God AND to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. (NAS)

Revelation 1:4-6
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him (God the Father) who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne; AND from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him (Jesus) who loves us, and released us from our sins by his blood, and he (Jesus) has made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (NAS)

Jesus Is Not The Almighty & Therefore He’s Not Alpha & Omega. Revelation 1:8 is a reference to God the Father (Yahweh) as the Creator, the beginning and end of everything which has been created, including the creation of His son Jesus (read Genesis. 1:1).
Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NAS)


Contrasting The Word Of God With The Testimony Of Jesus
Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God AND the testimony of Jesus. (NAS)

John 8:38-50

38 I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.” 39 In answer they said to him: “Our father is Abraham.” Jesus said to them: “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. 40 But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You are doing the works of your father.” They said to him: “We were not born from immorality;* we have one Father, God.”

42 Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? 47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

48 In answer the Jews said to him: “Are we not right in saying, ‘You are a Sa·marʹi·tan and have a demon’?” 49 Jesus answered: “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 But I am not seeking glory for myself; there is One who is seeking and judging.
...
[question: if Jesus was God (the "One who is seeking and judging", the One who sent him and who taught him everything he knows about right and wrong), why did Jesus not say at verse 42: "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I" am God? Instead, he's talking about God having sent him and coming from God, just one more clear indication he's talking about someone else]

...Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.

Unlike some Trinitarians around here who are behaving in the same manner as those Jesus is addressing here. And I'd like to lend my support to Jesus argument as to why this is possibly the case regarding some individuals (I can't look into people's hearts like Jesus but I can read clues as to someone's attitude towards bible teachings including the teachings of Jesus, see quotation from 1 Timothy 6 further below):

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me."

Same here. "Why do you not understand what I am saying?" when I'm quoting Jesus talking about God as someone else and reminding people that it was God who sent him, therefore also not understanding what Jesus is saying here? "Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me", and I'd like to add that having one's ears tickled by Satan's "ministers of righteousness" "disguising themselves as apostles of Christ" (2 Cor. 11:13-15) is involved as well in this situation as opposed to the situation with the Jewish religious leaders, scholars, scribes and teachers described in John 8. Same character-type and way of thinking, reasoning and arguing though and the same problem:

"The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God."

Verses 25-27:

25 So they began to say to him: “Who are you?” Jesus replied to them: “Why am I even speaking to you at all? 26 I have many things to speak concerning you and to pass judgment on. As a matter of fact, the One who sent me is true, and the very things I heard from him I am speaking in the world.” 27 They did not grasp that he was talking to them about the Father.

Someone else.

19 Then they said to him: “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered: “You know neither me nor my Father. ...

Same situation here among the Trinitarians, Binitarians and those calling themselves "Jewish Christians". And there's only a small chance that there's anyone here that wants to rectify that situation, to heal that broken bond. But I encourage giving it a try anyway (song #1 and the bible quotations it is based on is a good start as well):



1 Timothy 6:3-5 (the song below it continues with verse 6)

If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, 4 he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed* [Or “has an unhealthy fascination.”] with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander,* [Or “abusive speeches.”] wicked suspicions, 5 constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain.


One of the best songs ever made in my personal opinion:

Song 30 - Jehovah Begins His Rule

a reply to: EasternShadow

The contradictions abound..


Imho it is very obvious what happened and the Bible even says as much.. it is just the dogma surrounding it disagrees with what is obvious.. suprise, suprise..

ASSUMING EVERYONE HAD THE BEST OF INTENTIONS!


The Bible (NT) wasn’t written by one person at one time..

It was written by dozens of people over centuries and basically no one agrees 100% on what actually happened..

But the Christian establishments wanted a ironclad doctrine to follow, not a compilation of sources that disagree with each other. So they manufactured all the trinity and Jesus was god himself stuff to reconcile those differences.

What do you do when mark says one thing and Luke the other, but you still wanna claim inerrancy???


You have to mesh the 2..

John says jesus was god, but mark says he wasn’t. So what do you do??


YOU MAKE HIM BOTH!!

You establish some logic, no matter how flimsy.. that makes both sides gel..

a reply to: EasternShadow

Jesus Is Not The Almighty & Therefore He’s Not Alpha & Omega.

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Jesus Is Not The Almighty & Therefore He’s Not Alpha & Omega. Revelation 1:8 is a reference to God the Father (Yahweh) as the Creator, the beginning and end of everything which has been created, including the creation of His son Jesus (read Genesis. 1:1).

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NAS)

You're wrong, plus you skipped over Revelation 1:5-6 which says...

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jesus is the one who is returning to set up his Millennial Kingdom. Your lack of biblical knowledge continues to show. Christians at least know that Jesus is the one who is returning, unlike you, obviously.

Revelation 1:7

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

What else did John say about the one who spoke to him?....

Revelation 1:12-18

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Revelation 1:18 above and Revelation 1:7 tells us exactly who Revelation 1:8 is talking about.

Revelation 1:8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

a reply to: Deetermined

Alpha and Omega: Insight, Volume 1

These are the names of the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet and are used as a title three times in the book of Revelation. The additional occurrence of this phrase in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, however, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.

While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.” [whereislogic: that's already quite an acknowledgement by a Trinitarian scholar, more than you'll get from most others]

The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.​—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.

The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”

The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.​—Compare Isa 44:6.

The video deals predominantly with Revelation chapter 22.

Regarding Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant”:

Gal 3:20 (Amplified Bible, Classic edition)

20 Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person]. Yet God is [only] one Person. ...

1 Timothy 2:5 (NW)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

a reply to: Deetermined

A) jesus ran no government and won no wars..

B) prince of peace is an agreed upon mistranslation . Put there by sneaky christians trying to imply a “son of god” so they intentionally misquoted “Ruler” as Prince.

The real translation is ruler of peace.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

We've already had this discussion. Christians know that Jesus will rule over the Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years OF PEACE before it becomes permanent (the New Jerusalem). There are several books of the Old Testament that talk about what the coming Millennial Kingdom will be like, but you wouldn't know or understand anything about that.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

You left out

Isaiah 9:7

He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

Jesus did not accomplish this. Therefore He is not the Lord Almighty. My point still stand.

originally posted by: Deetermined
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

I did not mentioned it in my earlier my post because it is clear Jesus Christ is just the the prince of the kings of the earth. He is not The Lord of Heaven. That would be his Father, Yahweh.

originally posted by: Deetermined
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

You overlook AND his Father.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Jesus is the one who is returning to set up his Millennial Kingdom.

I'm not interested with unfulfilled prophecy. It's not an evidence of truth. Until it is proven, do not based truth on speculation.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Your lack of biblical knowledge continues to show. Christians at least know that Jesus is the one who is returning, unlike you, obviously

No. I see a lot of baseless wishful thinking in the mind of Christian to add something that isn't there just like what happen 2000 years, which result in various Christian sects that no longer walk the path of Abraham, David, Moses and Jesus.

The rest of Revelation "prophecies" quoted by you is pointless if Jesus has not even accomplish Isaiah 9:7. Let Jesus sit on the throne of David first, then we will talk about the rest of Revelation Prophecies. As I said, I'm not interested in speculation. I'm looking for evidence of truth.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Revelation 1:18 above and Revelation 1:7 tells us exactly who Revelation 1:8 is talking about.

Revelation 1:8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Refer to my post above. Jesus does not meet the requirement provided by Isaiah 9:7.

a reply to: whereislogic

Sorry, whereislogic, but your little video and false narrative is no match for the Bible.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Now we know that you and Joshua Cox both know nothing about the Bible and specifically the Old Testament prophecy of the coming Millennial Kingdom and it's confirmation in the books of Zechariah and Revelation. If you knew anything, you would know that the battle of Armageddon has to happen first before the Millennial Kingdom starts and then after the 1,000 years of peace will be the final battle of Gog and Magog. Sheesh! Learn your Bible!

Edit to Add: Here's one of the things that has to happen first before the battle of Armageddon...

Zechariah 12:3

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: JoshuaCox

We've already had this discussion. Christians know that Jesus will rule over the Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years OF PEACE before it becomes permanent (the New Jerusalem). There are several books of the Old Testament that talk about what the coming Millennial Kingdom will be like, but you wouldn't know or understand anything about that.

They don't know that God's chosen people kill 2 messiahs in a row; John the Baptist and Yeshua of Nazareth, to prevent the prophecy become happening.

The thing is the chain of event has changed over the course of 2000 years.

a reply to: EasternShadow

The thing is the chain of event has changed over the course of 2000 years.

God's word never changes. While the Jews may have broken their end of their Covenant with God, God will not break his end of the agreement. The only problem is that God is only going to allow one third of the Jews to witness it, the remaining two thirds will be cut off, just as told in Zechariah.

a reply to: Deetermined

I know we have already had this discussion..


I thought there we had established YOU DONT GET TO USE THINGS THAT HAVENT HAPPENED YET AS PROOF OF SOMETHING !



If I say “I will fulfill all the messiah prophecies”.

That is not proof I am the messiah..

Obviously..

a reply to: Deetermined

I know we have already had this discussion..so why are you still using broken arguments you know are not relevant??


I thought there we had established YOU DONT GET TO USE THINGS THAT HAVENT HAPPENED YET AS PROOF OF SOMETHING !



If I say “I will fulfill all the messiah prophecies”.

That is not proof I am the messiah..

Obviously..

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

Now we know that you and Joshua Cox both know nothing about the Bible and specifically the Old Testament prophecy of the coming Millennial Kingdom and it's confirmation in the books of Zechariah and Revelation. If you knew anything, you would know that the battle of Armageddon has to happen first before the Millennial Kingdom starts and then after the 1,000 years of peace will be the final battle of Gog and Magog. Sheesh! Learn your Bible!

Edit to Add: Here's one of the things that has to happen first before the battle of Armageddon...

Zechariah 12:3

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

I know nothing in those verses ever mentioned that Israelites had killed their messiah and their savior who were suppose to sit on the throne of David that day on passover 2000 years ago.

The Armageddon doesnt happen in near future just as they hope. Both Revelation and Zechariah 12:3 had missed their mark the day Jesus was crucified.