The religious bottleneck of the first century.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Aren't you Christian?

a reply to: QuestionsAboutReligion

Was raised that way, southern baptist even , but after actually looking into he subject and finding out literally every testable claim in the Bible is easily debunked..

Plus just actually contemplating the ridiculousness of the whole theme....

I changed my mind.

I mean how convoluted is,

“God creates himself in human form, as his own son (figure that out why don’t ya). Just so he could sacrifice himself, to himself. to appease himself. To save the human race from himself. “

That is more convoluted than Batman vs Superman’s plot..



Also there is the fact that Christianity is obviously based on Judaism in name only..

Christians claim it is the same god, but the whole dynamic is different..

Judaism has no hell..

They have no prophecy for a divine leader..

They don’t take a literal view of the Bible.

Judaism is based on works, not faith... you don’t even need to believe in the Jewish god to go to heaven..

Exc. exc.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Talmuddies are not Hebrews. They are Romans. OT is like having the opponent game book. Their religion is not Judaism.
No such thing as a Jew. They are called minorities in America. Europeans are not semites. Accept that hurdle before attempting any further.

Christ reformed the zealots who were previously militant against Rome. Samsons became Bob Marleys. Then they killed the Nazarite peacemaker, and spitting image of Mohammads Satan (yes J-man was a brother). Fishy.

Fishy as in, Rome is behind all conflict, and hates people interfering with their drama (evil and war is the religion of Rome.. Hence Islam.)

Anything Rome touches was planned out centuries ago. You cant keep up with the lies. Thats why brains are useless. Use your heart. God doesn't favor Europeans. Deal w it.

a reply to: AdKiller

Migo I am not sure what you were going for there but it is pretty damn hard to follow ..

The only thing I am sure I knew what you meant. Is the don’t think feel part..

And I would just like to point out. That is the same advice every con man, car salesman, abusive spouse and priest has given in history..

“Don’t actually think about how convoluted this narrative is.. don’t think about how little chance any of it has of being factual.. ignore all that and Just follow how you feel.. and give me some donations..”

Lol

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I mean how convoluted is,

“God creates himself in human form, as his own son (figure that out why don’t ya). Just so he could sacrifice himself, to himself. to appease himself. To save the human race from himself. “

That is more convoluted than Batman vs Superman’s plot..

The Bible tells us that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than ours too (Isaiah 55:8-9).

If you think the above scenario is convoluted, how convoluted to you think it is that Satan and the fallen angels have always known who God is, but have chosen to work against Him anyway in the name of free will, wishing they were capable of usurping God's position and power? At least God has worked out a salvation plan for humans (one that is not offered to the angels), which is probably also why God's plan of salvation for humans includes the shedding of blood (something that angels don't have).

a reply to: JoshuaCox

The Talmud isn’t the only ancient text that was filled with racial propaganda. The NT became VERY anti-Jew , VERY fast..

So it goes from being a religion “by Jews, for Jews”, to a religion by Jews for gentiles..

The New Testament is the one that states that God is not a respecter of persons. (Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, Galatians 3:28)

It also wasn't Paul who wrote the Old Testament claiming that two thirds of the Jews would be cut off in the book of Zechariah. When are you going to start researching the Old Testament to know that the Old Testament itself predicts everything that happens to the Jews for either disobeying God or for not recognizing Him altogether. Jesus even quoted Psalm 22:1 while he was on the cross. The whole story of what would happen was already laid out in the Old Testament. Quit blaming Paul for anything and everything.

a reply to: Deetermined

“ god is just sooo smart.. that even something that is just patently ridiculous to thinking being. Makes sense to god..”


I reiterate... lol

Says every conman and snake oil sales man in history..


I do not find the war in heaven narrative to be AT ALL as ridiculous as the whole “I’m my own son exc, exc, exc” Narrative..

“Some of The angles got jealous of humans and revolted.”

Happens all the time with humans..


God has worked out a salvation plan where the only criteria is ,

“they have to believe I was my own son...”

“Doesn’t matter if they molest children, murder people or talk during movies.. if they repent and believe I am my own son.. they are cool..”

Yea... there is ANY situation where that makes sense..

a reply to: Deetermined

According to christian translations and interpretation only..


Secular historians don’t think it says that..

Jewish scholars do not think it says that..

In fact I think that is supposed to be talking about king David..


Why did almost no Jews convert to Christianity??

Because the jesus tale is the antithesis of Judaism..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

In fact I think that is supposed to be talking about king David..


Why did almost no Jews convert to Christianity??

Because the jesus tale is the antithesis of Judaism..

Psalm 22 is talking about Jesus, just like the entire chapter of Isaiah 53.

Jesus is only the antithesis to Judaism because of their own stubborness, which is why God uses them throughout all of history to make an example out of them.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Disregard the Pompeii comment, I was liltle confused by something I watched. What I meant about it, is that they found something that like the cross in one of the perserved villas at Pompeii. It's a said fact about the Romans, that when someone was crucified, it was to an X shape cross, not the lower case t.

Yea, that kind of would make sense with the Holocaust an what not, an the presence of modern day Israel. Idk to much about the Talmud, just a few sentences, an that it came about sometime early A.D. I wouldn't go to far to say the N.T targeted the Jews specifically, it more or less could have taunted them, with O.T.

Zealous times.

a reply to: Deetermined

ONLY according to Christians..

ONLY Christians..

According to jews it is not..

According to secular historians it is not..

If you would like even more info on it. BART Ehrman does an excellent example of explaining the real life context and realities of first century Jerusalem.


He explains exactly where the changes in the gospel are, and how jesus almost certainly never claimed to be the son of god..

No one even thinks the gospels are even second hand. Aka someone interviewing a primary source.

If im right it is accepted that John is a total fabrication.

Not written until hundreds of years later...

The earliest gospels we have are beautifully written by VERY accomplished Greek scholars.. and by accomplished I mean arguable the best writers on the planet..

Well the primary sources, the first person witnesses were not extremely skilled and well educated Greek authors..

They were Judain dirt farmers and fisherman..

The gospels were not written by , nor were they ever even read by Judain dirt farmers..


Imho if anything was evidence of Atwill’s “Rome created jesus” theory it is that..

The early gospels are too good for a grass roots bunch of Jewish peasants to pull off.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

According to jews it is not..

According to secular historians it is not..

Your replies are becoming boring ramblings.

Why don't you just tell us who the Jews and secular historians think Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 were written about along with an explanation.

a reply to: Deetermined

Isiah 53:

this chapter is generally quoted pretty accurately, although some liberties are taken with the Hebrew. For example, verse 5 says the servant was punished BECAUSE OF our sins, not “for” our sins. It’s a small, but significant difference. However, even if the translation is essentially correct, who says this chapter is a messianic prophecy? Most commentators say the “servant” is Israel. Israel is called G-d’s servant throughout the Book of Isaiah; look at the chapters leading up to this one – Isaiah 41:8-9, 44:1-2, 45:4, 48:20, 49:3 – they all overtly call the nation of Israel the servant. (This list is hardly exhaustive; there are many other examples. These are just the ones in the immediate vicinity of Isaiah 53.) Israel is called the servant in many other places, as well. See Psalms 136:22 and Jeremiah 30:10. Now look at Jeremiah 30:17, just a few verses later, speaking of Israel as being afflicted – it’s thematically the same as Isaiah 53:4 because they’re talking about the same thing – the nation of Israel! So Israel is called G-d’s servant in many places and the messiah is called a servant… pretty much no place! Ezekiel does use the phrase “My servant David” to refer to the messiah, who is the descendant of David, but David is clearly the servant in those verses.

Psalm 22:

The actual text in the Torah

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

The KJV “translation”,

For dogs have compassed me, the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet.

See how those sneaky jokers added the “pierced” part.


outreachjudaism.org...

a reply to: Specimen

As soon as Christianity became mainly Roman , which was less than a century. It was crazy anti-Semitic and remained that way till the holocaust..


They spent 1000s of years trying to get them to call jesus the messiah by the sword.

a reply to: Specimen

Search BART Ehrman debates on youtube

Has a historian debate other Christian biblical historians.

So you got both sides “best arguments “.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Sorry, but trying to state that Isaiah 53 is talking about the nation of Israel is laughable. Verse 7 says he has a mouth and verses 10 through 12 says he has a soul. Sorry, not even close.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

As for Psalms 22, let's look at verse 18...

Psalms 22:18 - 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Pslams 22:22 - 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Hmmm. Who else in the Bible died in front of an entire congregation while declaring the name of the Lord (verse 22) and then had people cast lots for his clothes (verse 18)?

Matthew 27:35 - And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Last but not least, who would be remembered for all of this for generations to come?

Psalms 22:31 - 31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

a reply to: Deetermined

Um:..

The people of Israel as a whole would have a mouth, that is how they speak and eat lol .. plus they refer to
Israel as all of those things in other passages In other places.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Deetermined

Um:..

The people of Israel as a whole would have a mouth, that is how they speak and eat lol .. plus they refer to
Israel as all of those things in other passages In other places.

Really? Give us the verses.

a reply to: Deetermined

This question evaporates when we discover that throughout the Bible, the Jewish people are consistently referred to as a singular entity, using the singular pronoun. For example, when God speaks to the entire Jewish nation at Mount Sinai, all of the Ten Commandments are written as if speaking to an individual (Exodus 20:1-14). This is because the Jewish people are one unit, bound together with a shared national destiny (see Exodus 4:22, Deuteronomy chapter 32). This singular reference is even more common in biblical verses referring to the Messianic era, when the Jewish people will be fully united under the banner of God (see Hosea 14:6-7, Jeremiah 50:19). As we will see, for numerous reasons this chapter cannot be referring to Jesus. Even in the Christian scriptures, the disciples did not consider the Suffering Servant as referring to Jesus (see Matthew 16:21-22, Mark 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45). So how did the Suffering Servant come to be associated with Jesus? After his death, the promoters of Christianity retroactively looked into the Bible and “applied” – through mistranslation and distortion of context – these biblical verses as referring to Jesus. Missionary apologist Walter Riggans candidly admitted: “There is no self-evident blueprint in the Hebrew Bible which can be said to unambiguously point to Jesus. Only after one has come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and more specifically the kind of Messiah that he is, does it all begin to make sense...” (Yehoshua Ben David, Olive Press 1995, p.155) The intention is not to denigrate another religion, but rather to understand the true meaning of the Divine word.

That was literally just the top search result on the list.

If you are actually interested in hearing the arguments. There are oodles of debates between both Uber high level rabbis and Christian scholars.


Jews for Judaism Youtube channel has many.

Christian apologist scholars (not a critism, Christians call them selves apologists because they freely admit they are trying to prove their point rather than taking the text for what it says) have to take a snippet from here and a snippet from there , with a dash mistranslation here or there..


Christianity is nothing like Judaism..

Nothing..

A) Judaism is based on works, not faith. You don’t even have to believe in the Hebrew god to go to heaven... just don’t kill, steal, curse the Hebrew god, eat the flesh of a still living animal, adultery and sexual deviancy

“Must believe I the Hebrew gets god” isn’t on that list..

Which is the opposite from Christianity which is based around faith not works..

Molest a child?? Repent and accept jesus and your good..

Rape and murder?? Repent and accept jesus and your good..

2) the Torah repeatedly tells the Jewish people not to believe ANYONE claiming to be god or claiming to change the laws..

Like 700+ times..

It specifically tells the Jewish people to reject any attempt to change gods laws UNTIL every human inherently knows the Hebrew god and his laws WITHOUT BEING TAUGHT!


Christianity claims jesus came to change the laws... and every human is not born inherently knowing about and following the Hebrew god..

3) the Torah says that god is not an man and will never be a man..

Christianity claims god made himself his own son a man. Lol