After you get through the gates of heaven what is eternal heavenly bliss like

a reply to: dfnj2015

I don't usually subscribe to the typical views of Hell.I tend to think that most of the ideas around Hell originate from the times the Jews were held in captivity in Babylon or perhaps latter cultural influences like the Greeks or Paradise Lost for example.I get the impression it may exist somewhere on the Astral Plane, but I have my doubts it would be a final destination for anybody.

Way back, I came across a description of a fiery place to Noah in the Book Of Enoch, and it stuck with me.It describes the punishment of the angels to Noah, before the deluge...

Chapter LXV

1 After this he showed me the angels of punishment, who were prepared to come, and to open all the mighty waters(1) under the earth:

2 That they may be for judgment, and for the destruction of all those who remain and dwell upon the earth.

3 And the Lord of spirits commanded the angels who went forth, not to take up the men and preserve them.

4 For those angels presided over all the mighty waters. Then I went out from the presence of Enoch.

(1)the power of water p.80


Chapter LXVI

1 In those days the word of God came to me(2), and said, Noah, behold, thy lot(3) has ascended up to me, a lot void of crime(4), a lot beloved(5) and upright.

2 Now then shall the angels labour at the trees; but when they proceed to this, I will put my hand upon it, and preserve it.

3 The seed of life shall arise from it(6), and a change shall take place(7), that the dry land shall not be left empty. I will establish your seed before me for ever and ever, and the seed of those who dwell with you on the surface of the earth. It shall be blessed and multiplied in the presence of the earth, in the name of the Lord.

(2)was with me (3)portion (4)fault (5)of love (6)be (7)shall enter p. 80

4 And they shall confine those angels who disclosed impiety. In that burning valley [it is, that they shall be confined], which at first my great-grandfather Enoch showed me in the west, where there were mountains of gold and silver, of iron, of fluid metal, and of tin.

5 I beheld that valley in which there was great perturbation, and where the waters were troubled.

6 And when all this was effected, from the fluid mass of fire, and the perturbation which prevailed(1) in that place, there arose a strong smell of sulphur, which became mixed with the waters; and the valley of the angels, who had been guilty of seduction, burned underneath its soil.

7 Through that valley also rivers of fire were flowing(2), to which those angels shall be condemned, who seduced the inhabitants of the earth.

8 And in those days shall these waters be to kings, to princes, to the exalted, and to the inhabitants of the earth, for the healing of the soul and body, and for the judgment of the spirit.

9 Their spirits shall be full of revelry, (3) that they may be judged in their bodies; because they have denied the Lord of spirits, and [although] they perceive their condemnation day by day, they believe not in his name.

(1)troubled them (2)went (3)sport p.81

10 And as the inflammation of their bodies shall be great, so shall their spirits undergo a change for ever.

11 For no word which is uttered before the Lord of spirits shall be in vain.

12 Judgment has come upon them, because they trusted in their carnal revelry (1), and denied the Lord of spirits.

13 In those days shall the waters of that valley(2) be changed; for when the angels shall be judged, then shall the heat of those springs of water experience an alteration.

14 And when the angels shall ascend, the water of the springs shall [again] undergo a change, and be frozen. Then I heard holy Michael answering and saying, This judgment, with which the angels shall be judged, shall bear testimony against the kings, the princes, and those who possess the earth.

15 For these waters of judgment shall be for their healing, and for the death of their bodies. But they shall not perceive and believe that the waters will be changed, and become a fire, which shall blaze for ever.

(1)sport of their bodies (2)its waters p.82

Chapter LXVII

1 After this he gave me the characteristical marks(1) of all the secret things in the book of my great-grandfather Enoch, and in the parables which had been given to him; inserting them for me among the words of the book of parables.

2 At that that time holy Michael answered and said to Raphael, The power of the spirit hurries me away, and impels me on(2). The severity of the judgment, of the secret judgment of the angels, who is capable [of beholding]–the endurance of that severe judgment which has taken place and been made permanent–without being melted at the site of it?(3) Again holy Michael answered and said to holy Raphael, Who is there whose heart is not softened by it, and whose reins are not troubled at this thing?

3 Judgment has gone forth against them by those who have thus dragged them away; and that was, when they stood in the presence of the Lord of spirits.

4 In like manner also holy Rakael said to Raphael, They shall not be before the eye of the Lord; since the Lord of spirits has been offended with them; for like Lords have they
conducted themselves. Therefore will he bring upon them a secret judgment for ever and ever.

5 For neither shall angel nor man receive a portion of it; but they alone shall receive their own judgment for ever end ever

(1)the signs (2)irritates or excites them (3)and not be melted in the presence of it p.83-84

Pages 80-84, Laurance, Richard "Chapters 65-67" The Book Of Enoch (Wizards Bookshelf,1995)

originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml
a reply to: dfnj2015

I don't usually subscribe to the typical views of Hell.I tend to think that most of the ideas around Hell originate from the times the Jews were held in captivity in Babylon or perhaps latter cultural influences like the Greeks or Paradise Lost for example.I get the impression it may exist somewhere on the Astral Plane, but I have my doubts it would be a final destination for anybody.

Hell is not unique concept to the Judeo-Christian religions.

In Tibetan Buddhism there's Hell too.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Thank you AMPTAH, I'm aware.

I saw an episode of "The Story of God" exploring the concepts of Heaven and Hell, a while back.I don't have a link atm, but there should be one out there, it covered the concepts in different lines of thought.Makes me think there is something to it.I haven't encountered any Hell outside my daily life's adversity though, lol.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Over many years I have heard the claim that the Jews/Christians stole their Bible stories from other religions.

But I have found that the opposite is true. Most of the world religions took stories that go back 3,000-4,000 years of Jews historical accounts and used them to base some of their teachings on.

Yin and Yan/Ying and Yang is based on the misunderstanding that there is an ongoing struggle between good and Evil/God and the Devil. In this current world there are times good and evil at at odds. But Satan is in no way on equal par with God. Satan does not have the attributes that God has. God is in no way struggling with the Satan in any way.

Hercules is actually a stolen story from the Jews historical writings of Samson.

The day the earth stood still. known in Jews historical writings as Joshua's longest day has counterpart in many other societies around the world. One off the top of my head, is the long Sundown in Hawaii, where Maui is said to rope the sun and keep it from going down so that his mother's laundry could dry. The Teutonic tribes recorded the longer day on a breastplate the shaman/priest/religious leader wore, it is know called the Nebra Sky Disk.

Most of the Roman and Greek Gods were actually taken from the pantheons of gods that were worshiped in the Land of Canaan, Assyria, Arabia, Babylon, Sumerians and the like.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: chr0naut

We have no originals to know if copy really reads Pascha or another word.

We do have manuscripts and fragments dating from as early as approximately 125-175 years after the Crucifixion (Rylands P52).

The earliest extant complete manuscripts of the book of Acts, dated before 1611, all (except for Tyndale's translation), refer to 'Passover' and not 'Easter' in Acts 12:4.

Interestingly, Tyndale was the first English translation to use the name 'Jehovah', a compound name made up around 1200 AD by Latin speaking Germanic Jewish scholars. That's also another thing that is in the KJV, that was never in any of the original texts. It isn't God's name as far as I can tell!

But we do have a preserved Bible in English that God preserved for us in English and God says the word is "Easter".

Ask yourself, who decided that a version of the KJV alone was the "Preserved Word of God" and by what authority did they do so?

Which signifies it was a pagan celebration at best

Was there a particular pagan celebration in 1st Century Judea, about the time of Passover, and which Herod may have been concerned about? It would be nice if you could supply historical sources to support the assertion please, as I have found none and dislike basing, what may be important presumptions, upon hearsay.

According to all the Gospels, Jesus was crucified before Passover and rose again 3 days later, after Passover. Surely Passover and Easter, therefore, as reference to the timing of an event, are coincident, and the more inclusive phrases "after Passover" and "after Easter", used in Acts 12:4, even more so?

Herod was nominally the King of the Judeans, as his subjects were devout Jews and the most important day of the year for them was Passover, don't you think he may have been trying to avoid messing with the 'public holiday' as is recounted in Acts 12:4?

Remember all the pieces of the existing copies of the NT cannot be verified. Even in 1611 they had only bits and pieces of copies no ORIGINALS.
Without Originals there is no way to verify their accuracy.

I would contend that we have NO originals at all of any 1st Century manuscript. The writing materials in common use at the time, simply do not survive for thousands of years.

We do have 65,000 + early copies, fragments and translations which agree with each other, with history and with archaeology very closely. As history, archaeology and cross textual support verify the copies and the copies must have been from originals, the originals and their content are also verified.

As explained, we don't need the actual originals to be sure of their accuracy, because of the multiple copies and their accuracy.

We do not have any English translations of the New Testament until the Wycliffe translation/s in approx 1380 AD. Acts 12:4 in the Wycliffe translation/s, the very first in English, says 'pask' [Passover].

Therefore faith in God to preserve them correct to our generation as promised in Ps12:6, 7 if what we must have faith in.

The King James Version is a translation.

From 1611 until 1769 there were over 400 revisions made to the KJV, to fix its accuracy and keep it on track with changes in the English language. Which version of it is the 'preserved' one?

The English language into which the Bible was translated has neither the specificity of Koine Greek (exemplified in it having at least 7 words for 'love'), nor the immutability of Hebrew (where individual letters have meanings and words are built up of compounds of those meanings. Changing the meaning of a single letter would poison the meanings of all words in the language, so it is highly resistant to change).

For example, in English, in your great grandparents day, the words 'awful' and 'awesome' once meant approximately the same thing (filling one with a feeling of awe), today we see those word meanings as diametric opposites.

There were good reasons God chose the original languages and not English.

In all, the intended meanings behind both the originals and the translations is clear to those who look for such. The minutiae of tiny differences in expression do not occlude the truth, which is revealed unambiguously in consideration of the whole Bible.

Biblical concepts are repeated, using different language and idiom, in different places, woven throughout the Bible. As Charles Missler has said, "The Bible is written to defeat hostile jamming". There is a redundancy and a spread of data across the work that means the loss of pages or mistranslated words, does not alter the fidelity of the message.

That is the true 'preserved Word of God'.

originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml
a reply to: dfnj2015

I don't usually subscribe to the typical views of Hell.I tend to think that most of the ideas around Hell originate from the times the Jews were held in captivity in Babylon or perhaps latter cultural influences like the Greeks or Paradise Lost for example.I get the impression it may exist somewhere on the Astral Plane, but I have my doubts it would be a final destination for anybody.

Way back, I came across a description of a fiery place to Noah in the Book Of Enoch, and it stuck with me.It describes the punishment of the angels to Noah, before the deluge...

Chapter LXV

1 After this he showed me the angels of punishment, who were prepared to come, and to open all the mighty waters(1) under the earth:

2 That they may be for judgment, and for the destruction of all those who remain and dwell upon the earth.

3 And the Lord of spirits commanded the angels who went forth, not to take up the men and preserve them.

4 For those angels presided over all the mighty waters. Then I went out from the presence of Enoch.

(1)the power of water p.80


Chapter LXVI

1 In those days the word of God came to me(2), and said, Noah, behold, thy lot(3) has ascended up to me, a lot void of crime(4), a lot beloved(5) and upright.

2 Now then shall the angels labour at the trees; but when they proceed to this, I will put my hand upon it, and preserve it.

3 The seed of life shall arise from it(6), and a change shall take place(7), that the dry land shall not be left empty. I will establish your seed before me for ever and ever, and the seed of those who dwell with you on the surface of the earth. It shall be blessed and multiplied in the presence of the earth, in the name of the Lord.

(2)was with me (3)portion (4)fault (5)of love (6)be (7)shall enter p. 80

4 And they shall confine those angels who disclosed impiety. In that burning valley [it is, that they shall be confined], which at first my great-grandfather Enoch showed me in the west, where there were mountains of gold and silver, of iron, of fluid metal, and of tin.

5 I beheld that valley in which there was great perturbation, and where the waters were troubled.

6 And when all this was effected, from the fluid mass of fire, and the perturbation which prevailed(1) in that place, there arose a strong smell of sulphur, which became mixed with the waters; and the valley of the angels, who had been guilty of seduction, burned underneath its soil.

7 Through that valley also rivers of fire were flowing(2), to which those angels shall be condemned, who seduced the inhabitants of the earth.

8 And in those days shall these waters be to kings, to princes, to the exalted, and to the inhabitants of the earth, for the healing of the soul and body, and for the judgment of the spirit.

9 Their spirits shall be full of revelry, (3) that they may be judged in their bodies; because they have denied the Lord of spirits, and [although] they perceive their condemnation day by day, they believe not in his name.

(1)troubled them (2)went (3)sport p.81

10 And as the inflammation of their bodies shall be great, so shall their spirits undergo a change for ever.

11 For no word which is uttered before the Lord of spirits shall be in vain.

12 Judgment has come upon them, because they trusted in their carnal revelry (1), and denied the Lord of spirits.

13 In those days shall the waters of that valley(2) be changed; for when the angels shall be judged, then shall the heat of those springs of water experience an alteration.

14 And when the angels shall ascend, the water of the springs shall [again] undergo a change, and be frozen. Then I heard holy Michael answering and saying, This judgment, with which the angels shall be judged, shall bear testimony against the kings, the princes, and those who possess the earth.

15 For these waters of judgment shall be for their healing, and for the death of their bodies. But they shall not perceive and believe that the waters will be changed, and become a fire, which shall blaze for ever.

(1)sport of their bodies (2)its waters p.82

Chapter LXVII

1 After this he gave me the characteristical marks(1) of all the secret things in the book of my great-grandfather Enoch, and in the parables which had been given to him; inserting them for me among the words of the book of parables.

2 At that that time holy Michael answered and said to Raphael, The power of the spirit hurries me away, and impels me on(2). The severity of the judgment, of the secret judgment of the angels, who is capable [of beholding]–the endurance of that severe judgment which has taken place and been made permanent–without being melted at the site of it?(3) Again holy Michael answered and said to holy Raphael, Who is there whose heart is not softened by it, and whose reins are not troubled at this thing?

3 Judgment has gone forth against them by those who have thus dragged them away; and that was, when they stood in the presence of the Lord of spirits.

4 In like manner also holy Rakael said to Raphael, They shall not be before the eye of the Lord; since the Lord of spirits has been offended with them; for like Lords have they
conducted themselves. Therefore will he bring upon them a secret judgment for ever and ever.

5 For neither shall angel nor man receive a portion of it; but they alone shall receive their own judgment for ever end ever

(1)the signs (2)irritates or excites them (3)and not be melted in the presence of it p.83-84

Pages 80-84, Laurance, Richard "Chapters 65-67" The Book Of Enoch (Wizards Bookshelf,1995)

I find this confusing because according to Genesis 5, Enoch was "taken by God" 69 years before Noah was born.

a reply to: chr0naut

Hi, chr0naut.Idk, if you have had a chance to read over some of the translations of the book of Enoch. Indeed, Enoch had been taken up. According to this apocryphal work, Noah's great grandfather appeared to answer his laments.

Chapter 64

64:1 In those days Noah saw that the earth became inclined, and that destruction approached.

64:2 Then he lifted up his feet, and went to the ends of the earth, to the dwelling of his great-grandfather Enoch.

64:3 And Noah cried with a bitter voice, Hear me; hear me; hear me: three times. And he said, Tell me what is transacting upon the earth; for the earth labours, and is violently shaken. Surely I shall perish with it.

64:4 After this there was a great perturbation on earth, and a voice was heard from heaven. I fell down on my face, when my great-grandfather Enoch came and stood by me.

64:5 He said to me, Why have you cried out to me with a bitter cry and lamentation?

@ qbible.com...

qbible.com... has a copy of The Book Of Enoch closest to my physical copy.It is a translation by Richard Laurence the Archbishop of Cashel, published by Wizard's Bookshelf in 1993.The qbible link has additional comments on the text as well(in the footnotes).

This book is very interesting and records numerous parables and visions of Enoch and Noah.I believe the section of text I've brought to the table, may be a fragment from somewhere else (Visions of Noah?).I have enjoyed reading and studying this book over the years, and it's interesting to compare with latter scriptures especially...

originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml
a reply to: chr0naut

Hi, chr0naut.Idk, if you have had a chance to read over some of the translations of the book of Enoch. Indeed, Enoch had been taken up. According to this apocryphal work, Noah's great grandfather appeared to answer his laments.

Chapter 64

64:1 In those days Noah saw that the earth became inclined, and that destruction approached.

64:2 Then he lifted up his feet, and went to the ends of the earth, to the dwelling of his great-grandfather Enoch.

64:3 And Noah cried with a bitter voice, Hear me; hear me; hear me: three times. And he said, Tell me what is transacting upon the earth; for the earth labours, and is violently shaken. Surely I shall perish with it.

64:4 After this there was a great perturbation on earth, and a voice was heard from heaven. I fell down on my face, when my great-grandfather Enoch came and stood by me.

64:5 He said to me, Why have you cried out to me with a bitter cry and lamentation?

@ qbible.com...

qbible.com... has a copy of The Book Of Enoch closest to my physical copy.It is a translation by Richard Laurence the Archbishop of Cashel, published by Wizard's Bookshelf in 1993.The qbible link has additional comments on the text as well(in the footnotes).

This book is very interesting and records numerous parables and visions of Enoch and Noah.I believe the section of text I've brought to the table, may be a fragment from somewhere else (Visions of Noah?). I have enjoyed reading and studying this book over the years, and it's interesting to compare with latter scriptures especially...

I believe that the Book/s of Enoch reveal very telling details of Judaistic interpretation, historical belief, doctrine and theology during the 300 BC (Book of Watchers) to 100 AD (book of Parables) period, but I question its most literal interpretation.

The fact that the earliest complete extant copy is not in Hebrew but in an Ethiopic Aramaic and that it is considered non-Canonical by both Hebrew and Christian scholars, supports a healthy skepticism.

Also the book self attributes to Enoch, from before the flood, and I find that, coupled with a very low distribution of what should otherwise be a highly revered work, questionable. The flood occurring 669 years after Enoch was taken by God, also presents an issue and calls into question the truthfulness of his sole authorship of the book (of course, it could be part of a prophecy, but we don't actually have any record of such a prophecy).

However, with its apparent quotation in the Book of James, which is canonical and of good pedigree, I would also not discard, at least, the book of Watchers, too lightly, either.

In all, VERY interesting (especially doctrinally) but I wouldn't take it as 'gospel'.

a reply to: chr0naut

Thanks chr0naut.Looks like you have investigated this text yourself.You raised good points in your post, and I too remain skeptical as to the authenticity of that work.Following along the thread, I hadn't seen this kind of description brought up in the context of HEll.

Chapter 66, especially verse 12-15 stand out for me.In particular the idea of fire refining, and the way the waters are perceived brings to mind my more alchemical yearnings and the different baptisms that those seeking God go through.

a reply to: chr0naut

The who decided which Bible was preserved? Great question.

We would have to use the precepts and teachings of the Bible find out. Of course Before I found that the NASB, RSSV, NIV and the NKJV had missing words, verse and sections. I had incomplete data for which to work from. Once I found a Bible that had all the words (disputed by men or not) I began to put that one book to the test of Comparing spiritual things to spiritual (1Cor 2) and found perfect unity where it was lost in those other versions. I will admit the NKJV almost came close but still lacked. then I started to divide the word of Truth and found that there were in fact right division that led to better understanding and correct doctrine. But the greatest of all was searching to see that the whole of Scripture speaks of Christ. I found things many of us have glossed over when reading. So the more I read it the more stand out. I see the Holy One of Israel, which is Jesus Christ all over. As a matter of fact he was exalted and lifted up before the ever was an earth (God named it Eden), that the original like the new earth will not have any seas or oceans i.e. waters on it. It will have a river of life flowing from the throne but there are no seas or oceans collected from that river.

One God started to lift up Jesus he then created earth for the sole purpose of being a throne for The Holy One of Israel. We see that come to fruition in Rev 21-22. there is a 1,000 year reign on a corrupted earth that will have peace and then there is a new one for the old is done away as with the old heaven. So the universe will be one with the abode of God again, the third heaven as it is known today, but all the corrupted stars and the like we see through Hubble will be gone along with the old earth.

The beginning it was like that perfect one complete heaven(Gen1:1) no sun because God and the Lamb are the light. What is missing is the fact that how did the darkness come into existence? God knew once he created beings apart from himself, they would have to have free will. So the earth we are on now was created and then God made the heaven have a depth to it and placed the earth out into that depth, then God put some fountains of water out in the depth of the heaven we now call the third heaven (Prov 8:22-24) Some where along the line Lucifer, created a throne, we are not told but I would gather God had charged him with some angles to build a throne to exalt the Holy One on and that was the testing of these first created sons of God who sang in the beginning (Job). When iniquity was found in Lucifer(Isa14;12, Ezk 28:15-28) it was his assuming the throne for himself and claiming he would place it above all and he would be God, darkness for the first time came in to juxtaposition to the light of God.

When the inequity was found two classes of angels were now settled the Holy Angles of God and Satan's Angels who along with Lucifer/Satan the cherub, were judged and one of the fountains of water was poured out in judgement upon them, and they only await their execution of their sentence from God.

Then we see that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, and the earth was now without form and void (Gen 1:2) God called for light and prepared the earth in six days first by dividing the dark from the light giving the earth its two faces of a night and day our 24 hour day he said it was good. Then to contain the darkness He created a container to separate the waters above and the water below a firmament (Gen 1:3-5 later he would put the sun, moon and stars into it for light upon the earth to continue the day and night cycle that he started Gen 1:14-16, this firmament was day two and it was not said to be good. Because nothing that separates men from God could be good.

Then he did the rest of his work in 6 days and finally put man in a garden with his woman and rested on the seventh. At the end he said it was all very good. Not perfect but very good. Meaning even that separation he put between us was good in that man would not die because of the holy presence of God. but the eighth day did not even finish and the couple had sinned and he had to make them coats of skins meaning more than one animal died as an evening sacrifice on that day. Buy a promise to the woman was made that her seed would crush the serpents head but the son would have his heal bruised for it.

Later that son came down through a line of men chosen and placed in the world where he wanted them, Israel, His son came in the form of a man, died for our sins and went back to the glory he had with God before the beginning. We either accept the work of God through his son and we will live with him in a place the Bible tells little about if any at all. But He will return to complete the purpose the earth was created for, a place for him to be exalted and lifted up for all eternity.

All learned from a bible more people hate and despise that any other, the AV1611 English Bible.

So who did decide the AV was the preserved word of God, I have come to the conclusion it was God himself by his mighty power and no one else.

Be blessed

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: chr0naut

The who decided which Bible was preserved? Great question.

We would have to use the precepts and teachings of the Bible find out. Of course Before I found that the NASB, RSSV, NIV and the NKJV had missing words, verse and sections. I had incomplete data for which to work from. Once I found a Bible that had all the words (disputed by men or not) I began to put that one book to the test of Comparing spiritual things to spiritual (1Cor 2) and found perfect unity where it was lost in those other versions. I will admit the NKJV almost came close but still lacked. then I started to divide the word of Truth and found that there were in fact right division that led to better understanding and correct doctrine. But the greatest of all was searching to see that the whole of Scripture speaks of Christ. I found things many of us have glossed over when reading. So the more I read it the more stand out. I see the Holy One of Israel, which is Jesus Christ all over. As a matter of fact he was exalted and lifted up before the ever was an earth (God named it Eden), that the original like the new earth will not have any seas or oceans i.e. waters on it. It will have a river of life flowing from the throne but there are no seas or oceans collected from that river.

One God started to lift up Jesus he then created earth for the sole purpose of being a throne for The Holy on of Israel. We see that come to fruition in Rev 21-22. there is a 1,000 year reign on a corrupted earth that will have peace and then there is a new one for the old is done away as with the old heaven. So the universe will be one with the abode of God, the third heaven as it is known today, but all the corrupted stars and the like we see through Hubble will be gone along with the old earth.

The beginning it was like that perfect one complete heaven(Gen1:1) no sun because God and he Lamb are the light. What is missing is the fact that how did the darkness come into existence? god knew once he created beings apart from himself, they would have to have free will. So the earth we are one now was created and then God made the heaven have a depth to it and placed the earth out into that depth, then God put some fountains of water out int he depth of the heaven we now call the third heaven (Prov 8:22) Some where along the line Lucifer, created a throne, we are not told but I would gather God had charged him with some angles to build a throne to exalt the Holy One on and that was the testing of these first created sons of God who sang in the beginning. When iniquity was found in Lucifer(isa14;12, Ezk 28:15-28) it was his assuming the throne for himself and claiming he would place it above all and he would be like God, darkness for the first time came in to juxtaposition to the light of God.

When the inequity was found two classes of angels were now settled the Holy Angles of God and Satan's Angels who along with Lucifer Satan the cherub, were judged and one of the fountains of water was poured out in judgement upon them, and they only await their execution of their sentence from God.

Then we see that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, and the earth was now without form and void (Gen 1:2) God called for light and prepared the earth in six days first by dividing the dark from the light giving the earth its two faces of a night and day our 24 hour day he said it was good. Then to contain the darkness He created a container to separate the waters above and the water below a firmament later he would put the sun, moon and stars into it for light upon the earth to continue the day and night cycle that he started, this firmament was day two and it was not said to be good. Because nothing that separates men from God could be good.

Then he did the rest of his work in days and finally put man in a garden with his woman and rested. at the end he said it was all very good. Not perfect but very good. Meaning even that separation he put between us was good in that man would not die because of the holy presence of God. but the eighth day did no even finish and the couple had sinned and he had to make them coats of skins meaning more than one animal died as an evening sacrifice. and a promise to the woman that her seed would crush the serpents head but the son would have his heal bruised for it.

Later that son came down through a line of men chosen and placed int he world where he wanted them, His son came in the form of a man died for our sins and went back to the glory he had with God before the beginning. We either accept the work of God through his son and we will live with him in a place the Bible tells little about if any at all. But He will return to complete the purpose the earth was for a place for him to be exalted and lifted up for all eternity.

All learned from a bible more people hate and despise that any other, the AV1611 English Bible.

So who did decide the AV was the preserved word of God, I have come to the conclusion it was God himself by his mighty power and no one else.

Be blessed

OK, I agree to disagree.

Jesus is Lord over all!

originally posted by: chr0naut

Interestingly, Tyndale was the first English translation to use the name 'Jehovah',...

He used the form “Iehouah.” Over time, the English language changed, and the spelling of the divine name was modernized. For example, in 1612, Henry Ainsworth used the form “Iehovah” throughout his translation of the book of Psalms. Then, in 1639, when that work was revised and printed with the Pentateuch, the form “Jehovah” was used. In 1901, the translators who produced the American Standard Version of the Bible used the form “Jehovah” where the divine name appeared in the Hebrew text.

Explaining why he used “Jehovah” instead of “Yahweh” in his 1911 work Studies in the Psalms, respected Bible scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham said that he wanted to employ a “form of the name more familiar (while perfectly acceptable) to the general Bible-reading public.” In 1930 scholar A. F. Kirkpatrick made a similar point regarding the use of the form “Jehovah.” He said: “Modern grammarians argue that it ought to be read Yahveh or Yahaveh; but JEHOVAH seems firmly rooted in the English language, and the really important point is not the exact pronunciation, but the recognition that it is a Proper Name, not merely an appellative title like ‘Lord.’”

What is the proper pronunciation of God’s name?

...

The Codex Leningrad B 19⁠A, of the 11th century C.E., vowel points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwahʹ, Yehwihʹ, and Yeho·wahʹ. Ginsburg’s edition of the Masoretic text vowel points the divine name to read Yeho·wahʹ. (Ge 3:14, ftn) Hebrew scholars generally favor “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation. They point out that the abbreviated form of the name is Yah (Jah in the Latinized form), as at Psalm 89:8 and in the expression Ha·lelu-Yahʹ (meaning “Praise Jah, you people!”). (Ps 104:35; 150:1, 6) Also, the forms Yehohʹ, Yoh, Yah, and Yaʹhu, found in the Hebrew spelling of the names Jehoshaphat, Joshaphat, Shephatiah, and others, can all be derived from Yahweh. Greek transliterations of the name by early Christian writers point in a somewhat similar direction with spellings such as I·a·beʹ and I·a·ou·eʹ, which, as pronounced in Greek, resemble Yahweh. Still, there is by no means unanimity among scholars on the subject, some favoring yet other pronunciations, such as “Yahuwa,” “Yahuah,” or “Yehuah.”

Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable, there seems to be no reason for abandoning in English the well-known form “Jehovah” in favor of some other suggested pronunciation. If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures: Jeremiah would be changed to Yir·meyahʹ, Isaiah would become Yeshaʽ·yaʹhu, and Jesus would be either Yehoh·shuʹaʽ (as in Hebrew) or I·e·sousʹ (as in Greek). The purpose of words is to transmit thoughts; in English the name Jehovah identifies the true God, transmitting this thought more satisfactorily today than any of the suggested substitutes.

Importance of the Name. Many modern scholars and Bible translators advocate following the tradition of eliminating the distinctive name of God. They not only claim that its uncertain pronunciation justifies such a course but also hold that the supremacy and uniqueness of the true God make unnecessary his having a particular name. Such a view receives no support from the inspired Scriptures, either those of pre-Christian times or those of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

The Tetragrammaton occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew text printed in Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. In the Hebrew Scriptures the New World Translation contains the divine name 6,973 times, because the translators took into account, among other things, the fact that in some places the scribes had replaced the divine name with ʼAdho·naiʹ or ʼElo·himʹ. (See NW appendix, pp. 1561, 1562.) The very frequency of the appearance of the name attests to its importance to the Bible’s Author, whose name it is. Its use throughout the Scriptures far outnumbers that of any of the titles, such as “Sovereign Lord” or “God,” applied to him.

...

Source: Jehovah: Insight, Volume 2

a reply to: whereislogic

see chr0naut, see what happens when you start down the trail of disbelief in God preserving his word, you end in a cult up going back to languages and documents he hasn't even seen and you end up in the JW's as this poor feller has.

Stick the the preserved word of God and ya can't go wrong.

Go here to see what a Bible believers really should be like. www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

It would not surprise me in any way if the mentions were, in reality, word-of-mouth descriptions of the Saudi Arabia area volcanoes/volcanic fields to the south & east. It's clearly describing eruptions & lava floes as it is.

a reply to: AMPTAH
The Gospel of Thomas is an apocryphal gospel. I have reasons for not trusting such works. Certainly not when used as an argument against the very clear statement from Ezekiel 18:4 (and 20):

The soul* who sins is the one who will die.

*: Or “person.” See Glossary.

Apocryphal Gospels—Hidden Truths About Jesus?

...There is renewed interest in such apocryphal gospels. Some people claim that these texts unveil momentous events and teachings from Jesus’ life that were long kept hidden. But what are the apocryphal gospels? Can they really teach us truths about Jesus and Christianity that we cannot find in the Bible?

Canonical and Apocryphal Gospels

Between 41 and 98 C.E., Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote down “the history of Jesus Christ.” (Matthew 1:1) These accounts are sometimes called gospels, meaning “good news” about Jesus Christ.—Mark 1:1.

While there may have been oral traditions as well as other writings about Jesus, these four Gospels were the only ones considered inspired of God and worthy of being part of the Holy Scriptures—providing “the certainty of the things” regarding Jesus’ earthly life and teachings. (Luke 1:1-4; Acts 1:1, 2; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17) These four Gospels are mentioned in all the ancient catalogs of the Christian Greek Scriptures. There is no basis for questioning their canonicity—their status as part of the inspired Word of God.

In time, though, other writings started to appear that were also given the name gospels. These other gospels were called apocryphal.*

*: The term “apocryphal” comes from the Greek word that means “to hide away.” The word originally indicated a text that was reserved for the followers of a particular school of thought and was hidden to the uninitiated. However, it eventually came to denote writings not included in the authentic Bible canon.

At the end of the second century, Irenaeus of Lyon wrote that those who had apostatized from Christianity had “an unspeakable number of apocryphal and spurious writings,” including gospels that “they themselves have forged, to bewilder the minds of foolish men.” Hence, the apocryphal gospels ended up being considered dangerous not only to read but even to own.
...
Apocryphal Gospels: Far-fetched Accounts About Jesus

The apocryphal gospels often focus on people who are spoken of little or not at all in the canonical Gospels. Or they tell of alleged incidents regarding Jesus’ infancy. Consider some examples.

▪ The “Proto-Gospel of James,” also called “The Birth of Mary,” describes Mary’s birth and childhood as well as her marriage to Joseph. For good reason, it has been described as religious fiction and as a legend. It promotes the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary and has clearly been written to glorify her.—Matthew 1:24, 25; 13:55, 56.

▪ The “Infancy Gospel of Thomas” concentrates on Jesus as a child—between 5 and 12 years of age—and credits him with performing a series of far-fetched miracles. (See John 2:11.) Jesus is presented as a naughty, irascible, vindictive child, who uses his miraculous powers to take revenge on teachers, neighbors, and other children, some of whom he blinds, cripples, or even kills.
...
Apocryphal Gospels and Apostasy From Christianity

In December 1945, near Nag Hammadi, in Upper Egypt, peasants chanced upon 13 papyrus manuscripts containing 52 texts. These fourth-century documents have been attributed to a religious and philosophical movement called Gnosticism. Mixing elements of mysticism, paganism, Greek philosophy, Judaism, and Christianity, the movement was a contaminating influence on some professed Christians.—1 Timothy 6:20, 21.

The “Gospel of Thomas,” the “Gospel of Philip,” and the “Gospel of Truth,” found in the “Nag Hammadi Library,” present various mystic Gnostic ideas as if coming from Jesus. The recently discovered “Gospel of Judas” is also counted among the Gnostic gospels. It portrays Judas in a positive light as the only apostle who really understood who Jesus was. One expert on this gospel notes that it describes Jesus as “a teacher and revealer of wisdom and knowledge, not a savior who dies for the sins of the world.” The inspired Gospels teach that Jesus did die as a sacrifice for sins of the world. (Matthew 20:28; 26:28; 1 John 2:1, 2) Clearly, the Gnostic gospels are intended to undermine, rather than strengthen, faith in the Bible.—Acts 20:30.

The Superiority of the Canonical Gospels

A close consideration of the apocryphal gospels exposes them for what they are. Held next to the canonical Gospels, they betray a clear lack of divine inspiration. (2 Timothy 1:13) Written by people who never knew Jesus or his apostles, they reveal no hidden truths about Jesus and Christianity. Rather, they contain inaccurate, invented, fanciful accounts that are of no help in getting to know Jesus and his teachings.—1 Timothy 4:1, 2.
...

1 Timothy 6:20,21 is the one that talks about that which is "falsely called knowledge" (Greek: gnosis) and 1 Timothy 4:1 is the one that talks about "teachings of demons" that I mentioned before in this thread. No thank you, I'm not interested in what the Gospel of Thomas says about what Jesus supposedly said.

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: chr0naut

Interestingly, Tyndale was the first English translation to use the name 'Jehovah',...

He used the form “Iehouah.” Over time, the English language changed, and the spelling of the divine name was modernized. For example, in 1612, Henry Ainsworth used the form “Iehovah” throughout his translation of the book of Psalms. Then, in 1639, when that work was revised and printed with the Pentateuch, the form “Jehovah” was used.

Check out how God's name was spelled in an original 1611 edition of the KJV, looks like "JEHOUAH" to me. But I'm not that familiar with that old letter style. At 3:08:

The first letter could also be an "I" (allthough I think it's a "J"), especially when considering what's mentioned below at 2:57:

Jehovah's Witnesses: Defending the Divine Name

JW's are the biggest propaganda of private interpretation of Scriptures which is not allowed in study of the Bible.

Go here and see what a real Bible believer should aim to be and do when it comes to the Bible and beings a true Christian. www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: chr0naut

He used the form “Iehouah.” Over time, the English language changed, and the spelling of the divine name was modernized. For example, in 1612, Henry Ainsworth used the form “Iehovah” throughout his translation of the book of Psalms. Then, in 1639, when that work was revised and printed with the Pentateuch, the form “Jehovah” was used. In 1901, the translators who produced the American Standard Version of the Bible used the form “Jehovah” where the divine name appeared in the Hebrew text.

Explaining why he used “Jehovah” instead of “Yahweh” in his 1911 work Studies in the Psalms, respected Bible scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham said that he wanted to employ a “form of the name more familiar (while perfectly acceptable) to the general Bible-reading public.” In 1930 scholar A. F. Kirkpatrick made a similar point regarding the use of the form “Jehovah.” He said: “Modern grammarians argue that it ought to be read Yahveh or Yahaveh; but JEHOVAH seems firmly rooted in the English language, and the really important point is not the exact pronunciation, but the recognition that it is a Proper Name, not merely an appellative title like ‘Lord.’”

But it isn't a proper name. It is a compound word at best, made from the Tetragrammaton (God's revealed proper name) and the vowels from the Hebrew title, 'Adonai'. It was invented thousands of years after the fact and translated into English a hundred years or so, later.

...

The Codex Leningrad B 19⁠A, of the 11th century C.E., vowel points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwahʹ, Yehwihʹ, and Yeho·wahʹ. Ginsburg’s edition of the Masoretic text vowel points the divine name to read Yeho·wahʹ. (Ge 3:14, ftn) Hebrew scholars generally favor “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation. They point out that the abbreviated form of the name is Yah (Jah in the Latinized form), as at Psalm 89:8 and in the expression Ha·lelu-Yahʹ (meaning “Praise Jah, you people!”). (Ps 104:35; 150:1, 6) Also, the forms Yehohʹ, Yoh, Yah, and Yaʹhu, found in the Hebrew spelling of the names Jehoshaphat, Joshaphat, Shephatiah, and others, can all be derived from Yahweh. Greek transliterations of the name by early Christian writers point in a somewhat similar direction with spellings such as I·a·beʹ and I·a·ou·eʹ, which, as pronounced in Greek, resemble Yahweh. Still, there is by no means unanimity among scholars on the subject, some favoring yet other pronunciations, such as “Yahuwa,” “Yahuah,” or “Yehuah.”

Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable, there seems to be no reason for abandoning in English the well-known form “Jehovah” in favor of some other suggested pronunciation. If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures: Jeremiah would be changed to Yir·meyahʹ, Isaiah would become Yeshaʽ·yaʹhu, and Jesus would be either Yehoh·shuʹaʽ (as in Hebrew) or I·e·sousʹ (as in Greek). The purpose of words is to transmit thoughts; in English the name Jehovah identifies the true God, transmitting this thought more satisfactorily today than any of the suggested substitutes.

Importance of the Name. Many modern scholars and Bible translators advocate following the tradition of eliminating the distinctive name of God. They not only claim that its uncertain pronunciation justifies such a course but also hold that the supremacy and uniqueness of the true God make unnecessary his having a particular name. Such a view receives no support from the inspired Scriptures, either those of pre-Christian times or those of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

The Tetragrammaton occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew text printed in Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. In the Hebrew Scriptures the New World Translation contains the divine name 6,973 times

Where do they use the Tetragrammaton in the New World Translation, even once?

because the translators took into account, among other things, the fact that in some places the scribes had replaced the divine name with ʼAdho·naiʹ or ʼElo·himʹ. (See NW appendix, pp. 1561, 1562.) The very frequency of the appearance of the name attests to its importance to the Bible’s Author, whose name it is. Its use throughout the Scriptures far outnumbers that of any of the titles, such as “Sovereign Lord” or “God,” applied to him.

... and does any of that justify calling the Creator by something other than His revealed name?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: whereislogic

see chr0naut, see what happens when you start down the trail of disbelief in God preserving his word, you end in a cult up going back to languages and documents he hasn't even seen and you end up in the JW's as this poor feller has.

Stick the the preserved word of God and ya can't go wrong.

Go here to see what a Bible believers really should be like. www.abovetopsecret.com...

God has preserved His Word! It is complete, exists in multiple versions, multiple languages and across 2,000 years has maintained incredible integrity of message.

I feel fairly sure that a preserved Word of God would not exclude people based upon their native language.

...and all whereislogic's posts have established is that Jehovah (and versions of it) are not the name of God.

originally posted by: StallionDuck
Hell:

- it's like being in a pitch dark place (or lack of). Unable to see. No one around. Empty, eternal in every direction, no sounds, nothing to touch, nothing that the senses can detect. Only you. Only your thoughts, hearing your own words (if that) but having eternity to interact with your own thoughts, your own feelings, your regrets.

You have this with NO ONE around but only you.

I agree but I see it in different way. It's like sleeping. Do you remember the time before you're born to this world? The sensation inside your mother's womb? Baby/Fetus is proven scientifically can dream inside womb. We have ultra-sound evidences. But what are those dreams? Past Life? Or could it be the state where many would perceive as "Hell"?

originally posted by: StallionDuck
You exist in all of your loneliness forever and eternal. You're alone in your head, detached from anything and everything.

I dont believe that. There is always a second chance. A "second death" for everyone. And you will never be alone.

originally posted by: StallionDuck
The hardest and worst part... It's forever! ...and it's self made. You trap yourself and simply wont, for some reason, let all that guilt and sadness go, only to wallow in it willingly because it's all you know. No matter how much you want out, you keep yourself there.

Like the baby trapped inside his mother's womb. But everything will be fine and forgotten once the baby is born. The mother will protect, provide, comfort and love the baby for the rest of her life. Because God is like a mother. That's how life begin.

originally posted by: StallionDuck
Heaven:

I have no idea. I suppose it involves learning all of the mysteries of God for all eternity. Like each and every day, you find out another truth and you explore it. I guess the best way to explain it would be as if you were an archaeologist and every day you discover a new ancient city. Knowledge!

No need for money. Everything you need is there for you. No chains of regret, jealousy, hatred, all the things that make us ugly. Comforted in spirit for all eternity and no pain, no death, no hardships, no heartaches.

Finally.. peace.


But truly... I have not one clue. Only what I feel inside that 'might' be the right answer.

I feel the same way.