Senior Palestinian leader: 'Trump has sabotaged our search for peace, freedom and justice'

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: pavil
The Palestinians will have to eventually take a deal that is not everything they wish for.

they should take the fight to the political arena, where they would actually have a good chance

to win, by their shear numbers.

So Might makes right? You prove my point.

Eventually the Palestinians will have to put up or shut up. So will Israel. That time is coming sooner than later.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I didn't mean to imply that you were ignoring them out of laziness or any other reason, I just mentioned "to which you didn't respond" so that you knew what I was expanding on.

I make an assumption by your avatar that you are biased on one side versus the other--I don't know if I'm wrong on that assumption. Personally, I really have no dog in the fight, other than a very far removed reality that I'm a practitioner of Krav Maga, which originated in Israel. I'm not religious, and I have no family that I know of in the ME, and I often question the strong, nearly blind support of Israel by the U.S. Government.

I do, however, have a bias against the UN, as I've noted, and its role in causing/perpetuating issues in the ME. I actually agree with Obama when he stated that the U.S. should not be a part of brokering peace, and that it's something that needs hashed out by the two nations involved. This is why I feel the way that I do about how things are happening now, and especially in the last few decades.

In all honestly, though, I just want to stop seeing innocent people in that area be used as pawns or treated as lepers because of a claimed nationality, and I always abhor the reality when innocent civilians just trying to live a life are caught up in deadly attacks.

But then, one must consider what the Arabs in the East Jerusalem area actually want, and according to a poll conducted 2.5 years ago:

A slim majority of Palestinians living in Jerusalem would prefer Israeli citizenship to being citizens of a Palestinian state, a new poll indicates.

Just over half, or 52 percent, of respondents told pollsters they would prefer “Israeli citizenship with equal rights,” while 42% prefer to be Palestinian citizens when a Palestinian state is established ...

Data obtained by the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies indicates a jump over the past decade of actual requests by Palestinians in East Jerusalem for Israeli citizenship, rising from 114 applications in 2003 to between 800 and 1,000 per year now, around half of which are ultimately successful, Reuters reported ...

I mean, I'm by no means trying to poke and prod you to get you pissed off, I'm just trying to discuss this issue as an outside observer who is just discussing my view after reading up on the topic for a while now. I think that the wants and desires of the people actually living in East Jerusalem often get discarded in lieu of political bickering and goals, and while that poll indicates a near 50/50 split, the increasing trend of Palestinians in that area seeking Israeli citizenship tells me that the will of the actual inhabitants may be trending more on the favor of Israel's side, but only in the Jerusalem area. The West Bank and Gaza are pretty firmly planted in wanting to remain a non-Israeli area.

ETA: I admire your restraint on not allowing emotions to get the better of you--it's a rare find on this site anymore. I try my best to do the same, but don't always succeed.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

If anything, my bias is against oppression. I've voted for 3 Jewish people to be President of the US either in elections or in primaries (Nader, Jill Stein, and Bernie Sanders). I regularly stick up for the Ethiopian Jews and Maghrebi Jews who are discriminated against in Israel. Most of my extended family & friends are Christians, as are 10-20% of the Palestinians that I support. And I've spoken quite frequently against the Middle Eastern Muslim practice of "kafala" and against the radical branch of Wahhabism. I'm pro-LGBT rights (regardless of what my fellow "believers" may support); I'm a staunch feminist; I'm pro-labor rights, etc etc etc. In other words, I want all people to be treated fairly and I oppose what I believe is "wrong" while supporting what I believe is "right", regardless of who's on each side.

I simply don't agree with Israel's right wing policies, especially the Likud Party. I have no problem with Israel as a whole nor the many branches of Judaism nor the Tribe of Judah in general; just with their right wing zealots & hardcore policies. Then again, if you've seen my other posts on ATS, you'll see that I'm aggressively anti-right wing no matter what the issue is, particularly when it comes to xenophobia. What's being done right now to the Palestinian people is horrendous. But so many attempts to point this out are refuted with BS like blanket cries of "anti-Semitism", even though the Palestinians are also largely Semites (Arabs are the largest group of Semites both ethnically and lingually).

The ridiculous idea that "any criticism of Israel is proof of anti-Jewish bigotry" makes too many people scared to point out that Israel has politicians & political parties; has the Mossad which is just as bad as the CIA; has billionaires, an upper class, middle class, and lower class; has a "deep state"; has political and celebrity scandals; has corruption and anti-corruption groups; has charities & activists; has progressives & a left wing; has anti-war pacifists, has environmentalists & urban farming initiatives, etc. Israel is just another country with all of the pros and cons of every other country, from drug use and prostitution to professional sports & supermodels.

If seen like that, then it would be common sense to fight for human rights there for all of its people, which is what I want. But people here have been brainwashed to think that the modern country of Israel is something that it's not. And it irks me when the same self proclaimed "religious right" in the Deep South (where I'm from) say that there's a "war against Christianity", "war against Christmas", say crap about the world degrading because people are ditching God, and that they support Israel because of their biblical teachings. Yet that same supposedly pro-Christian "religious right" opposes their own fellow Christians in Palestine who've been begging for help for decades.

Every now & then people right here on ATS will make a thread about how Islam is supposedly wiping out Christianity in the Middle East, to which I usually reply something to the effect of "since when did the West care about Middle Eastern Christians?". We didn't care about the Iraqi Christians when we destroyed and occupied their country; didn't care about the Syrian Christians when we kept backing Wahhabi groups there; we certainly don't care about the Palestinian Christians; and we don't even want Middle Eastern Christians & Arab Christians to come seek safe haven as refugees from the wars we initiated, either.

Ultimately, I just want to see a lasting peace. As I've pointed out before, the Israeli right wing is against both the 2 State Solution and the One State Solution that involves all Palestinians becoming Israeli citizens (because they would outnumber Jewish Israelis). What options does that leave?

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Thanks for the long reply, and while it comes across as you having hard lines drawn in the sand on many of your stances, I think that I've read enough of your posts and interacted enough to know that you put thought into things deeper than just ideology, and that's a good thing.

I share your issue with the whole anti-Semitism conclusion when someone has issue with Israel as a state, and like I noted, I can't stand the blind, nearly absolute backing and support that the U.S. government gives Israel. Like you point out, Israel has its flaws like any other nation, although I would argue that from a philosophical point of view, they are more evolved than some of their neighbors (concerning some of the things that you noted you are for...especially women's rights).

Again, I have no true dog in the fight other than (A) the amount of my (our) tax dollars that go to Israel, (B) the high possibility that we will eventually have to go to war against a LOT of the ME on behalf of Israel, and (C) my desire to see the innocent people caught up in all of this just be able to live their lives in relative peace.

Of course, I think that the ME is, for the most part, a perpetual war machine, and as far back as we have written and oral accounts of inhabitants of that area, war has been a relative guarantee in every generation in some area at any given time. I know that the U.S. "need" to intervene over there exacerbates that reality, but I hold no hope that, even if we had an isolationist approach to the ME and completely left it alone, that it would really get much better.

As for the claim that Israel doesn't want Palestinians to become citizens, I don't buy that, as they are approving citizenship requests from Palestinians by the hundreds every year. So, sure, they probably don't want to incorporate the Palestinians who don't want to be citizens--but really, what nation would want hostile citizens?--but I see no evidence that Israel has historically and consistently denounced a two-state solution. That may be where they're at right now, but after everything that they've fought to gain (and then lose some of), I can understand from a sovereign-state point of view not wanting to give any of that up if you have staked your claims and you have one of the world's superpowers watching your six and acknowledging you claims as legitimate.

I try not to get wrapped up in the religious aspects of the ME issues, because being non-religious (and even anti-religious, if I'm fully disclosing things), I just see the religion point of view as being an ingredient to perpetual war and bickering. I try to see people first and nations second, and in doing that, I truly just cannot understand the apparent NEED for the ME to always be fighting with each other.

But I'm with you on the lasting peace, I'm just not sure if we agree on how that could come about, or if it could at all.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful post and the proper use of punctuation--it's nice when a long comment is easy to read.

originally posted by: pavil

Eventually the Palestinians will have to put up or shut up. So will Israel. That time is coming sooner than later.

Agreed, although from what I've read about the issue, Israel has put up quite a few times, and Palestine has basically just let them do so without a concerted effort to retain or regain their claimed land.

Like I noted in response to Enlightenedservant, at some point, Palestine's unwillingness or incapability to take back control of their land must be seen as a passive relinquishing of that control. In my opinion, the UN is the main culprit in prolonging this issue between Palestine and Israel.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

As for the claim that Israel doesn't want Palestinians to become citizens, I don't buy that, as they are approving citizenship requests from Palestinians by the hundreds every year

By the hundreds? There are around 12 million Palestinians. A little less than 2 million are already Israeli citizens while almost another 5 million live in the Israeli occupied Palestinian territories (including almost 2 million refugees whose families are originally from "Israeli" territory). For context, there are less than 9 million Israeli citizens in total, which includes the almost 2 million Palestinian citizens.

Even if they strictly allow the Palestinians in the occupied territories to become Israeli citizens, it would make the population balance roughly 50-50 for Jews & Palestinians. And if the 2 million plus Palestinian refugees living in Jordan are allowed to return home, the population balance will greatly shift over to Palestinians becoming the majority of Israeli citizens.

Also, the issue I'm referring to is the Palestinian "Right of Return". Israelis refuse to allow the right of return for Palestinian refugees who were forced from their land in what is now "Israeli" territory. These are the Palestinians that Israel won't allow to become Israeli citizens (more info HERE).

More than 700,000 Palestinians were forced into exile during the Nakba in the 1940s, and their offspring still haven't been allowed to return yet. This wikipedia page shows a list of the refugee camps in neighboring countries and the Palestinian territories, as well as the number of registered Palestinian refugees in those countries (HERE). The Yarmouk Camp in Syria and the Baqa'a Camp in Jordan have more than 100,000 registered Palestinians each, and those 2 countries have at least 10 separate refugee camps. Even in the current Palestinian territories, there are almost 2 million Palestinian refugees whose families were originally living in "Israeli" territory.

Also, here's a good article from last summer about Israel's current government's view on allowing Palestinian refugees to return to Palestinian territories:
Bennett: Palestinian refugees can’t return en masse to the West Bank

Here are a few gems from it to get the point across. And remember, these Israeli officials are arguing against even aloowing the Palestinian right of return to Palestinian territory, much less to Israeli territory.

Palestinian refugees can not be allowed to return to the West Bank en masse, Education Minister Naftali Bennett told Army Radio on Sunday morning. He warned that such a move would endanger the State of Israel.

“Anyone who allows millions of [Palestinian] refugees into Kalkilya and Tulkarm will turn Route 6 into a large refugee camp,” Bennett said, referring to the major highway that lies adjacent to the two Palestinian cities.

Bennett said part of his opposition to the creation of a Palestinian state stems from the issue of Palestinian refugees, who would be allowed the right-of-return to such a state.

“We will not allow one single refugee to return to the 1967 lines,” Liberman said. “That is at least my opinion, not a single refugee, not a quarter-refugee will return to the ’67 lines.”

Israel has long operated from the presumption that in any final status agreement with the Palestinians, refugees would have the right-of-return to the newly created Palestinian state but not to sovereign Israel.

Any other resolution of the issue, Jerusalem has argued, would undermine the concept of two states for peoples. But Liberman, like Bennett, raised the issue of the risks of such a resolution in the current geopolitical reality.

“Not a single Palestinian will return from Canada or the United Kingdom,” he said.

Those who would seek to relocate to the newly created Palestinian state would be refugees in Syria or Lebanon, who now live in those countries without rights.

(Sidenote: The article is written almost entirely in single sentences instead of in paragraphs. That's why I quoted it like that.)

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Palestine is its own worst enemy when it comes to Statehood. They have never been the dreamers of a Peace deal, they have to be dragged to the table it seems.

Israel will eventually have to cede part of East Jerusalem back in a peace deal. It will be a tough pill to swallow, but it will be needed.

The Palestinians will have to forget right of return to Israel and will have to adjust 67 borders in a deal.

Most of this has been hammered out in previous talks so it's more the will than the details at this point