How do Bible believers reconcile the book of Ecclesiastes with being an optimistic person?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

Because happy people don’t need to go to church. Happy people don’t need a guide to save them from their misery. Christianity relies on your misery, it relies on your guilt. If It didn’t make you feel terrible, you wouldn’t need it at all. If it didn’t insist that you were a piece of # that needs redemption, it would have no place in this world.

Look around Woody ...It seems to take all kinds to make the world go around and there are none missing .I suppose at this point I should ask you what Church you go to seeing you put a lot of emphasis on miserable people are the only ones that go there .

lol. And why would you think i go to church?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Because happy people don’t need to go to church. Happy people don’t need a guide to save them from their misery. Christianity relies on your misery, it relies on your guilt. If It didn’t make you feel terrible, you wouldn’t need it at all. If it didn’t insist that you were a piece of # that needs redemption, it would have no place in this world.

Wow Woody, you are nearly quoting scripture
That's what the New Testament states, but without the bitterness and far more eloquently

It does have a place, it's just you and your pious fundamentalism that attacks those who see it has a place

No better than the Christians I find hard to accept

I just like to point out that folks like you hold no illusions as to the motives of your gods. You know that the bible is the main source of christian misery, and you bask in it. You need people to feel as guilty as you do, to justify the nonsense you try to sell as truth. Nosense you can’t back up with any source except for the bible. Without it, you would have to face yourself for what you are. A terrible person who wants others to be as miserable as you are. That is what the bible teaches you to do.

And you will agree with me. You do most of my heavy lifting for me, and thanks for that.

My God has one motive love, offered in free choice

The bible is an escape from misery, not now, it's a future promise
You are not compelled to believe any of it

and yes, life is miserable, if you don't know it yet, just wait
Then, there is a promise for better

And by the way, the bible teaches Christians to face who they are, many don't
Repentance is harder than you could ever imagine
As tough, nasty, bad and brutal as you think you are, you are an infant compared to what I was

I didn't grow up in a church, didn't get the silver spoon, didn't live by your rules, I think you are soft

a reply to: Woodcarver

lol. And why would you think i go to church?

Two options . 1 is you don't seem to be one of the happiest joyful members on the board ,showing up with you Christian hammer in one hand while 2 giving a report on all the miserable people that attend Christian Churches . I guess you must be talking from experience and wouldn't be making it up like you tried to do saying the OT commandments were the same as The Code of Hammurabi .

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Because happy people don’t need to go to church. Happy people don’t need a guide to save them from their misery. Christianity relies on your misery, it relies on your guilt. If It didn’t make you feel terrible, you wouldn’t need it at all. If it didn’t insist that you were a piece of # that needs redemption, it would have no place in this world.

Wow Woody, you are nearly quoting scripture
That's what the New Testament states, but without the bitterness and far more eloquently

It does have a place, it's just you and your pious fundamentalism that attacks those who see it has a place

No better than the Christians I find hard to accept

I just like to point out that folks like you hold no illusions as to the motives of your gods. You know that the bible is the main source of christian misery, and you bask in it. You need people to feel as guilty as you do, to justify the nonsense you try to sell as truth. Nosense you can’t back up with any source except for the bible. Without it, you would have to face yourself for what you are. A terrible person who wants others to be as miserable as you are. That is what the bible teaches you to do.

And you will agree with me. You do most of my heavy lifting for me, and thanks for that.

My God has one motive love, offered in free choice

The bible is an escape from misery, not now, it's a future promise
You are not compelled to believe any of it

and yes, life is miserable, if you don't know it yet, just wait
Then, there is a promise for better

And by the way, the bible teaches Christians to face who they are, many don't
Repentance is harder than you could ever imagine
As tough, nasty, bad and brutal as you think you are, you are an infant compared to what I was

I didn't grow up in a church, didn't get the silver spoon, didn't live by your rules, I think you are soft

You say your god’s motivation is love? And he teaches that by making everyone miserable? So they need him to make it better for them?

I think the bible teaches people to hide who they are so they are accepted into the social group.

Life is misery? Only if you accept the teachings of the bible. I’m certainly not miserable. It seems a requisite for you though.

I’m not sure why you keep insisting that i am rich. I grew up in the woods hunting and eating what i could catch. Perhaps that is why i don’t see the world as difficult and miserable? You would like to think that i am privileged and that this is why i don’t need your stories. I say that i had it very rough, and have no time for things that make no sense.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

lol. And why would you think i go to church?

Two options . 1 is you don't seem to be one of the happiest joyful members on the board ,showing up with you Christian hammer in one hand while 2 giving a report on all the miserable people that attend Christian Churches . I guess you must be talking from experience and wouldn't be making it up like you tried to do saying the OT commandments were the same as The Code of Hammurabi .

For someone who lives in a black or white dichotomy, i can see why you like the thought of limited choices. Sorry to disappoint though.

The ten commandments are directly pulled from the code of hammurabi. Any serious scholar would agree. Not that you have researched all of the links i handed to you in earlier threads.

Your counterpart in this discussion fully agrees that the life of a christian is necessarily one of misery though. You only resist this notion because i bring it up. It does not surprise me that two christians cannot come to the same conclusions though. There are no facts to draw from.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Woody, enjoy Christmas

Just an aside, I have never infered you are rich, nothing even related to that, it's in your head
I think you are soft
Bitchin and moaning on the Internet at people you don't know, soft

a reply to: Woodcarver

The ten commandments are directly pulled from the code of hammurabi

Jesus said the first most important commandment was to love your God and the second was to love your neighbor . As before I will ask you exactly where in the hammurabi code you find the parallel between the two . Cite the code for us to look at if you can .

For someone who lives in a black or white dichotomy, i can see why you like the thought of limited choices. Sorry to disappoint though.

So I take it that my white lies are not gray enough for you eh .

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

lol. And why would you think i go to church?

Two options . 1 is you don't seem to be one of the happiest joyful members on the board ,showing up with you Christian hammer in one hand while 2 giving a report on all the miserable people that attend Christian Churches . I guess you must be talking from experience and wouldn't be making it up like you tried to do saying the OT commandments were the same as The Code of Hammurabi .

For someone who lives in a black or white dichotomy, i can see why you like the thought of limited choices. Sorry to disappoint though.

The ten commandments are directly pulled from the code of hammurabi. Any serious scholar would agree. Not that you have researched all of the links i handed to you in earlier threads.

Your counterpart in this discussion fully agrees that the life of a christian is necessarily one of misery though. You only resist this notion because i bring it up. It does not surprise me that two christians cannot come to the same conclusions though. There are no facts to draw from.

Yes life is miserable
We are taught to live miserable and share love, find joy, work hard at it
You infer, you are wrong as usual

We deny reality, then we are miserable
You contradict yourself
Hope your life gets better

a reply to: Woodcarver

You say your god’s motivation is love? And he teaches that by making everyone miserable? So they need him to make it better for them?

I think the bible teaches people to hide who they are so they are accepted into the social group.

Life is misery? Only if you accept the teachings of the bible. I’m certainly not miserable. It seems a requisite for you though.

You have it all wrong. The Bible doesn't teach anyone to be miserable, it teaches us that we're imperfect and we can make ourselves miserable. The Old Testament is one long story about mistake after mistake that humans have made for themselves.

When you say that the Bible teaches people to hide who they are, who do you think they are? When you answer that question, be honest and realistic.

Life isn't misery, it's temporary. That's what Ecclesiastes is teaching us. No matter what you accomplish in this short life, you'll still die and everyone will forget you eventually. You won't even be here to know what kind of impact you left behind, if you left one at all.

You say that you're not miserable, but you sure have one heck of a chip on your shoulder for someone making that claim.

Christians don't need to feel guilt or misery as a means to justify our faith or our God. If God thought that we were all worth saving and bringing into eternity to live with him forever, why shouldn't we feel the same way? We just recognize the fact that we weren't capable of creating a perfect eternity for ourselves, that only our Creator was capable of doing that for us, and we're grateful! All of the negativity we experience in this world, we created for ourselves through free will, not by the will of God. He doesn't want us to accept Him because He wants us to. He wants us to accept Him because we truly want to.

a reply to: Deetermined

Perfect

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Woodcarver

Woody, enjoy Christmas

Just an aside, I have never infered you are rich, nothing even related to that, it's in your head
I think you are soft
Bitchin and moaning on the Internet at people you don't know, soft

these are your words.

I didn't grow up in a church, didn't get the silver spoon, didn't live by your rules, I think you are soft

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Deetermined

Perfect

That’s wierd. You seem to agree with me that life is miserable and also agree with deetermined that life is not miserable. I think you just like following others.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Woodcarver

You say your god’s motivation is love? And he teaches that by making everyone miserable? So they need him to make it better for them?

I think the bible teaches people to hide who they are so they are accepted into the social group.

Life is misery? Only if you accept the teachings of the bible. I’m certainly not miserable. It seems a requisite for you though.

You have it all wrong. The Bible doesn't teach anyone to be miserable, it teaches us that we're imperfect and we can make ourselves miserable. The Old Testament is one long story about mistake after mistake that humans have made for themselves.

When you say that the Bible teaches people to hide who they are, who do you think they are? When you answer that question, be honest and realistic.

Life isn't misery, it's temporary. That's what Ecclesiastes is teaching us. No matter what you accomplish in this short life, you'll still die and everyone will forget you eventually. You won't even be here to know what kind of impact you left behind, if you left one at all.

You say that you're not miserable, but you sure have one heck of a chip on your shoulder for someone making that claim.

Christians don't need to feel guilt or misery as a means to justify our faith or our God. If God thought that we were all worth saving and bringing into eternity to live with him forever, why shouldn't we feel the same way? We just recognize the fact that we weren't capable of creating a perfect eternity for ourselves, that only our Creator was capable of doing that for us, and we're grateful! All of the negativity we experience in this world, we created for ourselves through free will, not by the will of God. He doesn't want us to accept Him because He wants us to. He wants us to accept Him because we truly want to.

The bible teaches that all are born with sin and must seek redemption. That is plainly saying that humans are not worth anything unless we are forgiven for the sins that god judges us by.

Also, you may not be aware that this convo has been going on for years between some of us. The only chip i have is that i want these ideas to be proven instead of simply asserted. Perhaps you have a good reason to explain why you put your faith in a book that makes wild and unaccountable claims? These folks have yet to yield any such explanations.

a reply to: antiantonym

I share your perspective. Believing in Jesus and believing in the teachings of Jesus are not the same thing.

The Bible was clearly written by men and not God directly. People idol worship the word "Jesus" and they idol worship the words in the Bible. Most people practice religion the same way they root for their favorite NFL football team. The thing is being a spectator is not the same thing as being on the field. There are many paths to salvation even though the idol worshiper claim there is only one. If you want to really learn and understand something you have to write about. Unless you are creating your own religion you really don't know what you are talking about. The truth is in the Bible but that's not where you will find it.

My problem with the idol worshipers is they often pass judgments on other people pretending they are speaking for God. It is the height of human hubris to pretend to be God's spokesperson on Earth. Think about. Nobody knows the mind of God. God's mind is incomprehensible. How God judge's other people is for God to decide. People love speaking from the holier than thou authority voice. People love pretending to be God.

But I'm fine with their judgments. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say, "you are not with God bla bla bla". And "you are going to suffer eternal damnation bla bla bla". Every time I talk to a Jesus worshiper and let my trues views know they get angry at me and persecute me. The so called "Jesus love" quickly dissipates. It's okay, because my faith in my idea of God and spirituality is much stronger than any of their persecutions.

People who benefit from selling Bibles and collecting tithes must have a religion the promotes obedience to the marketing message. You have to buy into their way of practicing religion otherwise you would NOT buy Bibles or pay the tithes. These people are NOT going to sell you a religion where you are responsible for your own salvation and it is not necessary to pay for absolution. People finding peace with God from withing is just not going to work. Sin, punishment, and hate sells. People want justice. People want other people to burn in Hell. Only the "righteous", that is the obedient slaves to the people selling the Bible and collecting the tithes, will be "saved". Everyone else will suffer for all eternity because evil people take pleasure in the idea of other people suffering for all eternity. This psychology dynamic seems a bit psychopathic to me. I just don't like the idea of anyone suffering for all eternity. Eternal suffer seems to me to be like cruel and unusual punishment we take precautions against in our secular rule of law. But hate sure sells!

So after years of struggling with the idea of sin, salvation, justice, punishment, eternal damnation, and the nature of God I've changed my views. My faith is with a creator God who has omnipotent powers. An omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. And since God is responsible for our creation, including all our imperfections, we are perfect and divine in the eyes of God. So I've change my view on the nature of God. My faith is now in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. My faith is in an all-powerful all-loving God who uses His infinite powers of forgiveness to allow everything to pass through the gates of heaven to experience heavenly bliss regardless of how we practice or not practice our religion.

What a nice thought: Everyone makes it through gates of heaven to experience heavenly bliss. Everyone is saved! This is good news for everyone including the people who would say otherwise because they would lose their cash cow of selling Bibles and collecting tithes. Too much money in religion.

So what if I am wrong? Then I will suffer eternal damnation according to the haters. This is my point, my faith is in a God of unconditional love. Unconditional means NO conditions. My faith in my God of unconditional love is absolute. There is nothing the Bible sellers and tithe collectors are going to say that will break my faith. God loves us just the way we are no matter how we screw up our lives. I still act morally because I have empathy, compassion, and I'm not a psychopath. The threat of eternal damnation means nothing to me. My God of unconditional love will save me no matter what happens in my life.

Having faith in a creator God of unconditional love is so much easier. No more hate. Just love and acceptance.

a reply to: Woodcarver

The bible teaches that all are born with sin and must seek redemption. That is plainly saying that humans are not worth anything unless we are forgiven for the sins that god judges us by.

I don't know if you've ever thought about it this way before, but EVERYTHING that's ever been created only has as much value as the Creator has bestowed upon it. God believes we are worth saving, but it's up to us to accept or reject the gift of salvation by acknowledging Him for who He is (and what He's done for us) as well as acknowledging who/what we are in that chain. In essence, we aren't worth anything without God anyway, as He created us. Any value that we place on ourselves outside of the Creator is just ego driven drivel.

Also, you may not be aware that this convo has been going on for years between some of us. The only chip i have is that i want these ideas to be proven instead of simply asserted. Perhaps you have a good reason to explain why you put your faith in a book that makes wild and unaccountable claims? These folks have yet to yield any such explanations.

These "ideas" are only proven through faith and the power of the Holy Spirit who knows your heart. I put my faith in the Bible because the Holy Spirit has shown me who my Creator is and what He has done for me. I speak to God continually in prayer, and He answers me. While the Holy Spirit has the power to soften even the hardest of hearts, he has a tendency to shy away from continued stubborness.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Woodcarver

The bible teaches that all are born with sin and must seek redemption. That is plainly saying that humans are not worth anything unless we are forgiven for the sins that god judges us by.

I don't know if you've ever thought about it this way before, but EVERYTHING that's ever been created only has as much value as the Creator has bestowed upon it. God believes we are worth saving, but it's up to us to accept or reject the gift of salvation by acknowledging Him for who He is (and what He's done for us) as well as acknowledging who/what we are in that chain. In essence, we aren't worth anything without God anyway, as He created us. Any value that we place on ourselves outside of the Creator is just ego driven drivel.

Also, you may not be aware that this convo has been going on for years between some of us. The only chip i have is that i want these ideas to be proven instead of simply asserted. Perhaps you have a good reason to explain why you put your faith in a book that makes wild and unaccountable claims? These folks have yet to yield any such explanations.

These "ideas" are only proven through faith and the power of the Holy Spirit who knows your heart. I put my faith in the Bible because the Holy Spirit has shown me who my Creator is and what He has done for me. I speak to God continually in prayer, and He answers me. While the Holy Spirit has the power to soften even the hardest of hearts, he has a tendency to shy away from continued stubborness.

Literally nothing is proven through faith. That claim would be an oxymoron. I have never been a believer in the claims of any religion and i have always wondered what makes people believe in something so contrary to the way we know the world works. Perhaps you could explain what is so compelling that you need to feel like you need to be saved from life itself?

If these reasons were evident, i would think more people would be open to these ideas. Why are christians so against showing proof of their claims and so opposed to reason and science? Surely you would agree that the claims in these stories go right against what we know to be possible.

Faith is a bad argument to use to explain any belief. I could say that it is my faith that red is blue and that 5 is 2. By your argument, i could force you to deal with me on those terms, and when i owed you 5, i could pay back 2, and say that it is my faith that compels me to think this way. You could argue facts and i could argue my faith. You could argue the law and i could argue religious persecution. Faith could never lead to facts as faith is the belief in something regardless of the facts.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Literally nothing is proven through faith. I have never been a believer in the claims of any religion and i have always wondered what makes people believe in something so contrary to the way we know the world works. Perhaps you could explain what is so compelling that you need to feel like you need to be saved from life itself?

You say that nothing is proven through faith, yet you admit that you've never been a believer in anything claimed by religion, so you really don't know or understand what's possible through faith to begin with. Believer=Faith.

Why do I feel the need to be saved from this life? Because I know there's a much better life waiting for us after this one is over. A life where evil no longer exists and people will be who they were meant to be, for eternity, not just temporarily. This life has been good to me, but I know it won't even compare to what's coming.

If these reasons were evident, i would think more people would be open to these ideas. Why are christians so against showing proof of their claims and so opposed to reason and science? Surely you would agree that the claims in these stories go right against what we know to be possible.

In case you haven't noticed, nothing is "evident", any longer. We all live in a world of perception where two people can look at the exact same thing and see something totally different from each other. These days, we could even argue all day long as to what's considered true, real, or fake. To me, the amount of intelligence it would take to create the beauty of this world, the complicated intricacies of human beings who are capable of reasoning and feeling emotion, are all proof that we were created by an intelligent God. That may not be enough for you. I'm not opposed to reason or science, but just because science can't prove how the universe came into existence, doesn't mean I don't believe it has value. The truth is, we can't explain everything we see, much less what we can't see. Science is only as good as the humans who are studying it, and we already know that we're not perfect and we make errors.

With God, all things are possible, but our human minds are too limited to understand that time and space are not limited to our understanding only.

Is there a particular story in the Bible that you're referring to as being impossible?

a reply to: antiantonym

I thought the author of Ecclesiastes had taken the red pill long before that concept existed. The fact that Ecclesiastes is so unpopular among Christians proves to me that most of them don't want the red pill.

The Matrix was based on "Allegory of the Caves " in "Platos Republic" , a long time ago comparison suggesting the world as we are programmed to live in is an illusion prepared by unseen manipulation by "the Powers that be".

Right with you about Modern Churchianity, any Organized Religion for that matter.

a reply to: antiantonym

Happy Solstice, or post Solstice!

When I awoke this morning
I saw the light filtering through my window,
my cat was sleeping on my thigh.
"Okay Kitty Kitty it's coffee time,
and look at the clock,
morning is earlier than yesterday!"

Morning and Evening, Solstice and Equinox;
these are events of the cycle.

The cycle is a verity,
repeating since before our ancestors controlled fire
and will repeat long after our descendants lose control of it.

People placed Christmas a few days after the Solstice so as to give a few days in which to observe and then cry out "Yes the light is stronger, the longest night has passed, it is not a cruel trick, joy to the World!"

===============
Edit to add:

I've got 8 minutes left to correct!

My apologies to those on the Southern Hemisphere. I am a Northerner.
At least later, when my days grow shorter, yours will grow longer.
It balances out in time.