When Jesus returns

a reply to: DISRAELI

Thanks for the read OP.

originally posted by: VigiliaProcuratio

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed

For example, every time Jesus refers to his "father" he's simply talking about his higher self.

No man is greater than the Lord whom came before him, and God Almighty is greater than them all.

Is a parent greater than their child? No, just at a different point in their soul's evolution. We are all ONE.

The moment that Christians let go of this deception that God is something separate than you, is the moment you will actually take steps towards ascension.

If you honestly believe that Jesus "did the work for you" and your only purpose in life is to behave and worship him, then you'll be wilfully enslaved for the rest of this current incarnation.

a reply to: DISRAELI

We are caugth up 1 Thess 4 (a partial ressurection of saved church only), also called our gathering unto him in 2thess 2, and that happens when the son of perdition is revealed and then a 7 year wrath starts and not just against the world but to finish his chastisement if Israel.
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'The Gathering or our being caught up" Starts the seven year Tribulation of Jacobs trouble, the day of the LORD as seen in 2Thess 2. Then there is a resurrection of Israel (these are the ones who are seen under the throne in Rev 5). FROM the dead at the end of the Seven years to facilitate Christ reign a 1,000 years while Satan is bound in the pit. Satan is then released and causes the unsaved during that time(1,000 years) to rise up against Christ's rule at Jerusalem. Satan is taken and cast into the lake of fire where the antichrist and the false prophet have been for 1,000 years already, then there is a final resurrection OF the dead for the great white throne judgment of the dead. These would be those that died before the 1,000 reign and those who died during the 1,000 years who were saved and unsaved, remember death and hell are not destroyed until the final great white throne judgement as seen in Rev 20.

Nothing placed in the middle anywhere, the word of God as found in the AV is simply clear as to how the gathering, the first resurrection of Israel from the dead, and the second resurrection of the dead for judgment are separated by 7 years, and 1,000 years. Anyone who detracts from what the word of God clearly says, and does not compare spiritual things with spiritual, and does not rightly divide the word of Truth, has the saved body of Christ going through the 7 year wrath of God poured out on the world and not being gathered unto Christ in the clouds ever more to be with him, before the 1,000 year reign and ties their gathering to the Resurrection OF the dead in rev 20, which is a clear error.

JMHSOTWOG.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
We are caugth up 1 Thess 4 (a partial ressurection of saved church only), also called our gathering unto him in 2thess 2, and that happens when the son of perdition is revealed and then a 7 year wrath starts and not just against the world but to finish his chastisement if Israel.

1 Thessalonians tells us that the time of being "caught up" is when the Lord comes (ch4 v15).
2 Thessalonians tells us the time when the man of lawlessness is destroyed is the time when the Lord comes (ch2v8).
In other words, our salvation from the man of lawlessness and his destruction are two aspects of the same event.
Once the Lord has come and we have been caught up, that man's career is over. All his works, including the tribulation, will be in the past.
(The fairly clear and straightforward story told by Thessalonians should be used as a guide to interpret the symbolism of Revelation, not other way round)

We ought not to be expecting to evade the tribulation.
There has never been any promise that we will escape tribulation, before the time comes when God brings it to an end altogether.
On the contrary, Jesus says that those who follow him will receive much in exchange, "with persecutions" (Mark ch10 v30).
Peter says "Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you" (1 Peter ch4 v12). But you will be surpised, presumably, because you are expecting to be elsewhere when the fiery ordeal happens. If so, you may be in for a shock, because you will certainly experience the tribulation if you live long enough. You need to accept that prospect and face up to it like a man, with faith.

That is the whole message and the whole point of the book of Revelation, that we will experience tribulation,and when it comes we must hold fast to our faith and our trust in God.
So John tells his readers that he "shares with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance" (Revelation ch1 v9). Of course he means the tribulation of Nero's time, but it shows the basic principle. Tribulation is something which the church shares as a common experience, and faces with patient endurance.

Patient endurance is necessary because the tribulation will continue, as Jesus warned, until it is "shortened for the sake of the elect". The weakness of your case is shown by the fact that you were obliged to adopt a strained and unnatural interpretation of that promise in order to evade the clear and straight-forward interpretation. The straight-forward understanding of the verse is that the days of tribulation will be shortened absolutely, not just "for those who have been taken away".

I don't think that is how God works.On the whole, we see him preserving his people by supporting his people in their troubles and helping them to get through, rather than by giving them an escape route.
We are told that Jesus prayed to the one who could save him from death, and was heard (Hebrews ch5 v7). But how did his Father "hear" him? Obviously not by enabling him to escape the Cross, but by remaining with him and taking him through it.
THAT is how we should be expecting to be preserved out of the tribulation. Not by God taking us away from it, but by God remaining with us and helping us through to the other side of it.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Incidentally, I can't see why you are expecting "seven years" of tribulation.
I understand that the "seven years" is based on Daniel's final "week".
But it seems clear from Daniel that the trouble starts only in the middle of that week, when he brings in the abomination "for half the week".
The same division between the "peaceful" half and the "troubled" half can be found in Revelation. We are told that the Beast has power "for one hour" (ch17 v12). I take this to be Revelation's version of "the week".
But we are also told that "there was silence in heaven for half an hour" (ch8 v1). Now the silence in heaven ends when trouble begins on earth (ch8 v5 onwards). So the implication is that the ruler's time is divided into two parts; the first half-week or half-hour is deceptively peaceful, and the second half-week or half-hour is the one that holds the trouble.

So the very common expectation of "three and a half years of tribulation" does at least fit the text better.
In confirmation of which, both Daniel and Revelation speak of "a time, two times, and half a time"- that is, three and a half times.
Revelation also describes the persecution time as "forty-two months" (which means three and a half years) and "1260 days" (which means forty-two months).
Whoever came up with "seven years" seems to be confusing two different issues; viz, the time during which the king has power, and the time during which he uses that power to trouble God's people.

a reply to: DISRAELI

the Lord doesn't come to the earth, he comes in the clouds and we are caught up to him 1Thess 4 and that is where we are gathered unto him.

I ignore that teaching and just use Paul's teaching in 1 & 2 Thess and line it up with Revelation, the man of sin is revealed at the beginning not the mid way point.

We are not God's people we are the body of Christ, God's people is Israel.

a reply to: DISRAELI

1 Thessalonians tells us that the time of being "caught up" is when the Lord comes (ch4 v15).

I have a question concerning the first resurrection [gathering of the saints].
In 1st Thessalonians 4:13 Paul declares that there are some who are asleep. Does not asleep reference as being dead and if so does asleep mean unconscious?

At this time that Paul said this who was he referencing? Was Paul referring to those who are supposedly in Sheol? The mainstream populace had no idea of anyone in heaven at this time and even Jesus taught that all souls were imprisoned in Abrahams Bosom which was in Sheol. That was the national Judaic belief at this time.

As you then go to Thessalonians 4:14 we see that God will bring some of these dead souls with Him from heaven. How did these dead souls get to heaven? Were they the justified that were in Sheol such as Abraham Or Isaac or Jacob?

Now in verse 16 Paul then says these dead souls will rise first. Does that mean that Abraham and all the justified souls have already risen first and are in heaven and that the living will follow either as a group or one by one in due time?

How could Paul know that there are two resurrections when Jesus had not as yet given the Revelation?

Can you help me understand this?

originally posted by: Seede
Now in verse 16 Paul then says these dead souls will rise first. Does that mean that Abraham and all the justified souls have already risen first and are in heaven and that the living will follow either as a group or one by one in due time?

The key to understanding what Paul means in these passages is to look at what he's trying to do.
He wants his brethren not to be grieving about the dead, "as others do who have no hope" (ch4v13).So the implication is that he is talking about people they knew, who became Christians and have since died.
In v15 he says that those who are still alive when Christ comes "will not precede" the deceased in the race to get to his presence. That the deceased will "rise first" is another way of saying the same thing.
So vv16-17 are describing, apparently, three events, almost simultaneous but in this sequence; the signal that Christ has returned, the resurrection of the deceased Christians, and the "taking up" of the combined group of living and resurrected Christians.

But Paul has also got other ways of describing the same events. His first answer to the issue raised in v13 was that when Christ returns God will "bring with him" those who have fallen asleep. In 1 Corinthians ch15 he says those remaining alive will be transformed "in the twinkling of an eye". The only way I can reconcile these alternative descriptions is to suppose that when Christ returns we find ourselves in his presence in the company of deceased Christians, in such a way that either explanation would seem to work.

As for what happens in the interval, I think the clue is in what Jesus says about "the little ones who believe in me" (not children, specifically, but his followers in general). "Their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven"(Matthew ch18v10). I'm sure you know that an "angel" is one sent as a messenger. We need to appreciate that these are angels sent by the followers of Jesus. In other words, their representatives. If you belong to Jesus, there is some aspect of you already standing in the presence of God and beholding his face.
The same teaching is in the letters; God has made us alive together with Christ, and HAS raised us up with him, "and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians ch2 v6). Even while we are alive, we are in heaven with God. I see that as the explanation of the sequence in Revelation ch7, when God "seals" his saints, and a great crowd immediately appears in heaven praising God. The great crowd are the heavenly presences of the people who have just been sealed on earth.

As I see it, we may find ourselves "in the twinkling of an eye" in the presence of Christ, and it will be difficult (and not important) to tell whether we have joined Christ or he has come to us, whether the resurrected saints have arrived on the scene in our company or in his company, and whether we have been there all along without being conscious of the fact.

I've applied these comments to deceased Christians because that seems to have been the pastoral issue Paul was addressing. But there is no reason why they should not also be applicable to people like Abraham who knew God before Jesus was born.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I've applied these comments to deceased Christians because that seems to have been the pastoral issue Paul was addressing. But there is no reason why they should not also be applicable to people like Abraham who knew God before Jesus was born. Text

Thank you DISRAELI for your thread. I have other questions but my main concern now is that of understanding the spirits of the dead.

The Jews believed that all spirits of the dead were contained in Sheol and they believed that those spirits were conscious spirits. Jesus taught the very same thing in Luke 16:19-31. Many Christian teachers do teach that Luke 16:19-31 was parabolic and not to be understood as factual. To me this is the key to my understanding Paul in 1st Thessalonians.

My question is -- Are all spirits of the dead souls conscious and aware of their surroundings after death of this body? That is as of today?

edit on 20-12-2017 by Seede because: My post was not showing ---?

a reply to: Seede
I read your question by clicking on "quote".
I don't know the answer, but if the spirits of the dead are already "in the presence of God", outside our time, that might be their state of consciousness.

P.S. You had one [ quote ] followed by another, without an intervening [ /quote ]. That's why it was cut short.

a reply to: DISRAELI

a reply to: Seede I read your question by clicking on "quote". I don't know the answer, but if the spirits of the dead are already "in the presence of God", outside our time, that might be their state of consciousness. P.S. You had one [ quote ] followed by another, without an intervening [ /quote ]. That's why it was cut short.

Thank you DISRAELI- I could not see it on my screen and did not know what went wrong. Appreciate your threads and your teachings.

Well it's pretty obvious who the man of lawlessness is now so does that mean Jesus is just around the corner? Because I think he might be pissed at that church they erected and that ridiculous salvation package they peddled but what really is going to set him off is when he sees the Church itself is the backbone of the Anti Christ. It was always clearly one of the heads of that Beast but now that the False Prophet is here he has brought this political monstrosity to life. The false prophecy being that they have to build the temple before Jesus can come back. Pence and those elders are pulling Trumps ego strings and getting him to push for Jesusalem. You have to be blind not to see the lavish praise he's heaping on Trump and admit it, you're peeing in your pants yourself over Jerusalem. But guess what. You got the Mark. Sorry bout the typo. It's In your forehead, not on. It's your belief in the Brutal God. Your religion is going up in flames.

a reply to: JerryMH
"He opposes and exalts himself against every god and object of worship, proclaiming himself to be God".
No, there is no obvious person who is doing this. I take it you mean Trump. He did oppose Hillary Clinton, who might be called a god, but she is not every god.

Trump isn't done yet but that verse is referencing your false Jesus. It's your religion that has propped Jesus into that place. You yourself proclaim him to be a god in a sense he never intended. He has the mortal wound that was healed.. a child can figure this out.

a reply to: JerryMH
"Antichrist" is a concept belonging to the New Testament religion which establishes Jesus.
If you don't believe in that religion, you have no rational reason to believe in an antichrist either.
There are two logical possibilties.
Either the New Testament is true, in which case the antichrist is the opposite of Jesus. (That how it is defined by John, who seems to have invented the word in the first place)
Or the NewTestament is not true, in which case there is no such thing as antichrist.

There's a third option. The version of Jesus propagated primarily by Paul but infecting the entire religion. What happened to the gnostics? Where did their Jesus go? Murdered by the people of the Antichrist who erected and wrote their own supposedly divinely penned book that authorizes the atrocities they've committed over the years. Threatening eternal punishment and wiping out people that wouldn't bend the knee. Sound familiar? That's the Beast.
I love Jesus more than you can imagine and don't think for a minute you or anyone else owns exclusive rights to Jesus or that your pathetic quibbles over doctrines are of any use. The church in no way resembles the original intent and it is an abomination in the Fathers eyes.

originally posted by: JerryMH
...who erected and wrote their own supposedly divinely penned book

The word "antichrist" originates from and is first defined in that book.
So I say again- if you reject that book, you have no rational reason to believe in an antichrist.

No again you don't own exclusive rights to anything. I happen to believe in the prophets and fortunately the meanings to Rev were locked up and you are totally clueless apparently. Trump already is the false messiah to many Jews right now. That prophecy is unfolding before your eyes and are you still going to deny it?

a reply to: JerryMH
You say this to me, who have written the definitive ATS account of Revelation?
Revelation- Project complete

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: JerryMH
You say this to me, who have written the definitive ATS account of Revelation?
Revelation- Project complete

hey look everyone!! Another christian has figured it all out!! If you want to know what the bible really meant, here’s your chance. This here human ATS poster is beyond reproach and obviously has special insight into the mind of god. Do not question his claims, as he is the only one who has read the bible with his special brain. All of those other christians are obviously working for the devil, but this one is special. He knows things, just ask him. He writes about it all the time, so everyone better start believing in jesus and disraeli because they are practically the same thing.