A man with a '‘Do Not Resuscitate’ tattoo was unconscious Doctors were unsure what to do.

Doctors in an emergency room in Florida were confronted with a problem with an unconscious and deteriorating patient: He had a "do not resuscitate" tattoo on his chest. Someone from the ethics department ruled that they should honor the request. They later found the patients official request

This however, brings with it alot of questions IMHO. A DNR requires paperwork and signatures etc. It is in many ways a legal document. If I ran into such a tattoo without paperwork, I think I would resuscitate that patient if they were unresponsive and no family was about. Do you want to be wrong? Was that just a mistake from a drunken night in Ixtapa? Anybody can write anything they want on their bodies, should that be an accepted standard?

The articles on this point out a lack of clearly defined DNR standards etc.

We should create a national database for DNR's. Tattoos should have a QR code perhaps that would link to a database that EMS and ED/ER people could scan and get the relevant information.

Thoughts?

www.miamiherald.com...

a reply to: FredT
Yea I read that earlier today. I was told by a few EMS friends that only legal documents, power of attorney, or next of kin count officially for DNR requests. I have my blood type tattooed right over my heart in a blood drop, but allegedly they would still have to test me as they cannot legally accept that as accurate data or something.

Interesting, I bet the man was like "oh hey, #, thanks for ignoring my tats man, I had a hot date coming next week!"

Bwwhahahaha!
Guess you let him die

No, it's not "in many ways a legal document." Legal documents have witness signatures, Notary stamps, etc. that provide that legality. These procedures ave been developed over many years as a guard against fraud. For example, if you leave a scrap of paper that says, "This is my will. I leave everything to my friend Ronnie, the prostitute" it is going to be challenged, but if you draw up a legal document with witness signatures you can construct a "self-proving will" that is accepted by the courts pretty much as a matter of course. It's not that the first one CANNOT be a legal will, but it won't be ruled legal without lengthy court proceedings. And there's the issue. With a tattoo there's not much time to argue.

What if, for example, this was a joke? What if this guy got drunk one night with his fraternity brothers and the bet was, "If you win I give you $5000. If I win you tattoo "Do not resuscitate" across your chest." You can't rule the possibility out and tattoos are not recognized as a legal way to make any sort of statement. And here's the worst part. What if the first responders guess wrong? How would you like to be at the wrong end of a wrongful death suit? I think that is a terrible position in which to place people who are tasked with making a life or death decision.

originally posted by: FredT
Doctors in an emergency room in Florida were confronted with a problem with an unconscious and deteriorating patient: He had a "do not resuscitate" tattoo on his chest. Someone from the ethics department ruled that they should honor the request. They later found the patients official request

This however, brings with it alot of questions IMHO. A DNR requires paperwork and signatures etc. It is in many ways a legal document. If I ran into such a tattoo without paperwork, I think I would resuscitate that patient if they were unresponsive and no family was about. Do you want to be wrong? Was that just a mistake from a drunken night in Ixtapa? Anybody can write anything they want on their bodies, should that be an accepted standard?

The articles on this point out a lack of clearly defined DNR standards etc.

We should create a national database for DNR's. Tattoos should have a QR code perhaps that would link to a database that EMS and ED/ER people could scan and get the relevant information.

Thoughts?

www.miamiherald.com...

If it was just a drunken night tatoo than its pretty stupid that you don't go in the next day to get "just kidding... save me" right next to it.

originally posted by: FredT


We should create a national database for DNR's. Tattoos should have a QR code perhaps that would link to a database that EMS and ED/ER people could scan and get the relevant information.

Thoughts?

How about, not.

My tattoos are my tattoos. Putting them in a database is ridiculous. Talk about overreach.

a reply to: FredT

Relying on a tattoo as a will statement is like relying on a prenup that's written on toilet paper to stick in court.

I say resuscitate, and confirm stupidity... then lead him to another source of tying up health professionals with additional litigation.

Darn it Doc... that was a prank gone bad back in the college days... I'm calling my lawyer!

im going to get a "do not arrest " tattoo on my forehead and go for a few 'duty-free' Ferrari test drives in Beverly hills and return the car at my leisure; how many days these test drives may last, i don't know.

If in doubt on the chest.

That’s what we teach when doing life support training in the UK.

If in doubt start CPR.

Nobody will be in trouble if they start CPR because they were unsure of a resus status but if you were to fail to start then it different.

The success rates are so low though anyway.

a reply to: FredT

A database for DNR's? You mean spend money to keep track of who is too afraid to just kill their cellf, and put the burden to decide life or death on another person? Aren't drug addicts essentially walking/living DNR's? Where's the database that logs people affected by drug addicts, and all the torn apart families??? Oh, that's right... that database is the health systems opiate prescription logs... a log for money, and not a log for healing.

The idea of a database is a bad one if you ask me... not only does it ignore the humans that already suffer from depression/addiction, but it's a gross waste of money. Think about it... people who want to die end their life... people who advertise the wish of death are crying out for help. It is not denying ignorance to be quick to want to spend a few bucks because some nimrod puts a doctor in a tough decision to make in such a short amount of time.

Was the database hypothesis added to throw fuel to the fire? Is that really in the best interest of humanity to add ignorances to a sea of them???

No, I don't think that a tattoo can be relied upon in such a serious situation, it's impossible to know the man's true intent.

I lost my beloved to Cancer in Aug. and a few things I learned were that even if you have completed a DNR, the hospital doesn't seem to have access to them, at least not in his case, he filled it out with his primary care doctor. I'm not sure it would have mattered because the doctors gave us control anyways when he was unconscious. I told them to do everything they could, and they kept him alive another 9 days...

I also learned that even if your an organ donor on your driver's license, they still call and ask permission to use his organs. They call within an hour of death and make you answer A LOT of questions, it took about a 1/2 hour. They were able to use his beautiful green eyes to help 2 other people.

a reply to: MountainLaurel

As a tattooist,that's one thing I wouldn't tattoo,for love nor money,just stupid.

Next time I go drinkin"

I'ma taken FredT with me!!

not all hero's are m0oderators..er..yes they are.. Hic!

a reply to: hiddenNZ

Why? The man also had the proper steps taken to file for a legal DNR order? There's times when even DNR orders are not honored, because time is too crucial to investigate it first.

I feel the man got the tattoo to make the health professional treating them check the records before going to work, and it was successful. They checked official records, and the tattoo matched the legal DNR order.

As long as the client shows the legal document to verify their wishes, its pretty much turning down a client with a purposeful tattoo. If I were a tattooist, I would verify the documentation, include a waiver in the process, then ink away once verified.

I thank you for having a limit of what you're willing to permanently display on someone... you save a lot of regret I am sure! This instance of that DNR tattoo isn't one of those instances I feel though...

originally posted by: schuyler
No, it's not "in many ways a legal document." Legal documents have witness signatures, Notary stamps, etc.

I was speaking about an actual real DNR order not the tattoo, My wording may have indicated otherwise.

a reply to: ttobban

Umm,the man died so I read. And its a personal choice to not tattoo that type of thing,same as I've never done someone's face or hands,in 27 years if tattooing.

originally posted by: ttobban

A database for DNR's? You mean spend money to keep track of who is too afraid to just kill their cellf, and put the burden to decide life or death on another person? Aren't drug addicts essentially walking/living DNR's? Where's the database that logs people affected by drug addicts, and all the torn apart families??? Oh, that's right... that database is the health systems opiate prescription logs... a log for money, and not a log for healing.

You making the assumption that a DNR is for people who don't have the inclination for assisted suicide etc. But thats not its intent. Its meant to honor the request of how a person wants the course of their medical care to go if they cannot say themselves. Assisted suicide is a whole nother ball of wax

as Asimov said "Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome."

As far as the database it no different than one of those medic alert bracelets

originally posted by: ttobban
a reply to: hiddenNZ

Why? The man also had the proper steps taken to file for a legal DNR order? There's times when even DNR orders are not honored, because time is too crucial to investigate it first.
.

Yes! you come into the ED in extremis and there really is not alot of time to decide to go or no go. You stall to check paperwork on a bad head injury or trauma, and you are in effect almost making them a DNR while you check things out.

originally posted by: baddmove
Next time I go drinkin"

I'ma taken FredT with me!!

not all hero's are m0oderators..er..yes they are.. Hic!

LOL, we actually did a mega code once for fun while intoxicated (no patients just mannequins) and we were still spot on with the algorithms. I'm always up for drinking

originally posted by: FredT

As far as the database it no different than one of those medic alert bracelets

It's WAY different. A Med-alert bracelet is a piece of metal that you buy. There is no database. There is no record. There is no maintenance of the information, no cost. To keep a nationwide database would be very very expensive.