Conceal Carry and Caution

I may have this in the wrong spot and if I do I apologize and mods please move accordingly.

I put this here, because although this is deeply personal and subjective, I can see these social pressures that caused this situation playing out in a variety of ways upon individuals and reflecting in our relationships.

My husband and I have a long standing argument that has been going on ever since the Colorado theater shooting in 2012. We are both second amendment advocates. He has a concealed carry permit. I do not. The primary reason why I don't is because I feel that the hyper vigilance required and the potential added risk for law enforcement makes such an act more risky than beneficial. My husband disagrees. Fine.

Okay not fine. Here's why. My husband will carry that gun willy-nilly into any establishment save government buildings or a bar. Even places where it is clearly marked that weapons are prohibited. He simply does not see the sign. He doesn't even really look. I point out later that it was posted and he just shrugs. Now, to me, this seems like just begging to get shot by a cop. He says I am overestimating the risk. You see, he feels that it should be his right to carry that wherever, so he just doesn't even bother to look for signs posted. It's like he thinks his intent is enough.

Yesterday, we went to a movie. We live in Montana. We went to Billings, this is an urban area that recently had some loony drive into Big Bear Sports through a window, hole up and have a shoot out with the cops. So, we have jumpy cops. He was carrying the gun. His response to my apparent discomfort with his judgement when carrying that weapon is to simply not tell me when he has it, so I didn't know that he was carrying a gun. It is posted at the front door of the theater that no weapons are allowed. We went early and at first we were the only ones in the theater. Before the lights were dimmed a younger man walked in, in a gray hoodie (up no kidding), and my husband did not even see the guy. I assumed that he did, but found out later that he did not. This profound lack of situational awareness is more common for him when he is carrying, which is also disturbing to me. So we are sitting in a theater, with a weapon he is not supposed to have (which I did not know about), and a weirdo sitting behind us that he didn't even see come in.

This is one example, but it is common.

I think he is behaving irresponsibly with that gun by not taking these factors into account, the potential risk from law enforcement and not remaining vigilant and aware of his surroundings. Also, it's rude and potentially risky to not let me know that he has the gun in my opinion. He says that I am overestimating the risk from law enforcement. Who is right here guys?

I will respond to posters but I do have to run into town (again) at some point so I will be away from my computer for a large chunk today.

At first i was in agreement with your husband with regard to carrying in most places and you being possibly over cautious with regard to his carrying being likely to result in injury from a "jumpy cop".

That said, he does sound to have absolutely horrible situational awareness.

He shouldn't be carrying, simply because it sounds like he wouldn't know when to use the gun until 20 minutes after something happened.

This lack of 'situational awareness' kind of translates to a lack of itchy fingers. That is good in my estimation. But were bullets to start to fly for some reason, I'd rather be seated by you two than just anywhere.

I think posted private property ought to be honored, or avoided.

You can't worry about all the weird characters out there. The guy with the hoody did not start shooting people, most people who wear them are not aware they look like a threat to others. Paranoia shouldn't rule your life.

It is nice to have a gun just in case, but it is not good to fear everything. It makes your husband feel more secure when he has the gun, hopefully he never needs to use it. Our society is going into hysteria, posting signs like no weapons in a movie theater is not going to keep someone who wants to shoot people from carrying one in. The theater is just trying to make a statement yet it is illogical because the person who goes in to shoot people knows that good people will not be able to shoot back....it makes the situation worse in my opinion.

But laws are laws and law abiding citizens should follow them and not take a concealed weapon into a place where the laws governing it say they can't. Does the theater actually have the right there to deny someone with a legitimate license from carrying? Or are they just doing that to make patrons feel safer, when actually they may be less safe.

Not sure what state you’re in, but here in Texas they have a specific sign they have to post. Can’t just write no guns and stick it on the window. That said, if you do go in and an employee asks you to remove it from the premises, you must.

Your husband is flirting with ruining his life. The wrong place carrying can result in Federal prosection. Personally, it sounds like he is the type that give the rest of us (CCW) a bad name...and don’t take this wrong, I would need the other side of the story to come to my final conclusion.

As for the hooded weirdo...if husband is carrying properly and securely, with enough practice to know someone can’t take his weapon from him, there is no need to sweat every nuance of every person in every location...that is what makes people jumpy and leads to bad results. Personally, I would think nothing of someone wearing a hoodie...it’s pretty common...wife and I have 2-3 each (one of mine is even a CCW garment). I am of the mind if they don’t bother me, I don't care about them. No idea what I’d do if someone else is being threatened with deadly force. I’d like to think my military and law enforcement training would spring me into action, but as a realist I know I haven’t practiced those scenarios in a long while and my ultimate goal is always my family’s safety. Then again, I could surprise myself.

Make no mistake, I have ZERO desire to be placed in that position...but if so, I will make the choice then.

None of this was likely helpful to you, just hope he stays out of jail for violating CCW laws...

"Concealed means concealed." I always carry and avoid places I know do not allow ccw (of course there are times when I too did not see a sign). My belief is that these unenforced gun free zones should be illegal, more people have been killed in them than those who are saved if any. If people want a gun free zone there should be metal detectors at all entrances and armed guards protecting those within (like a courthouse, sport arenas, or airport terminals).

originally posted by: rickymouse

But laws are laws and law abiding citizens should follow them and not take a concealed weapon into a place where the laws governing it say they can't. Does the theater actually have the right there to deny someone with a legitimate license from carrying? Or are they just doing that to make patrons feel safer, when actually they may be less safe.

That is a good question. I don't know. I know that the hospital cannot legally put up such a sign and yet they are all over the place in other businesses and establishments.

All the same. I feel that if a sign is posted it is more likely to mark him as suspicious in the minds of many people, including law enforcement, because he is ignoring "the rules".

a reply to: redhorse

Just because you have a gun on you does not mean you have to act, it merely gives you the option.
Sometimes it's not tactically sound to act, but to just be a good witness. Every situation is different. But I fall in line with the "better to have and not need" line of thinking.

I do not have my cpl yet but will get it when I have the money.

originally posted by: MisterSpock
At first i was in agreement with your husband with regard to carrying in most places and you being possibly over cautious with regard to his carrying being likely to result in injury from a "jumpy cop".

That said, he does sound to have absolutely horrible situational awareness.

He shouldn't be carrying, simply because it sounds like he wouldn't know when to use the gun until 20 minutes after something happened.

Admittedly, with a movie, it is particularly bad for him. He and my daughter both I call the "T.V. Zombies" because there could literally be a fire and they would have no idea if they were looking at a screen.

I wasn't that worried about the guy, but my husband didn't even realize that we weren't alone in that theater.

a reply to: redhorse

if you hear gunshots in that moment you will hope he has his gun.

Your husband is practicing his right to bear arms. I would feel safer around someone who could protect you if needed. a reply to: redhorse

originally posted by: NobodiesNormal
a reply to: redhorse

if you hear gunshots in that moment you will hope he has his gun.

I hear you guys. I do. This is a very low crime area, but there are a lot of pushy, nasty aggressive cops. I still see it different so far.

Cops are not your friend and your more likely to get shot by them than a criminal.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: rickymouse

But laws are laws and law abiding citizens should follow them and not take a concealed weapon into a place where the laws governing it say they can't. Does the theater actually have the right there to deny someone with a legitimate license from carrying? Or are they just doing that to make patrons feel safer, when actually they may be less safe.

That is a good question. I don't know. I know that the hospital cannot legally put up such a sign and yet they are all over the place in other businesses and establishments.

All the same. I feel that if a sign is posted it is more likely to mark him as suspicious in the minds of many people, including law enforcement, because he is ignoring "the rules".

I think they can refuse to serve you and possibly ban you from coming again, but I do not think the cops can arrest you in our state. Unless of course, you make a stink about it. That is a different issue and charge.

Guns are not allowed in government buildings in most states under conceiled weapens laws, and also are not allowed under open carry laws. That can get you in trouble. I think Hospitals are also protected from carrying weapons in, public schools are considered government. A business can actually search you for weapons if it is posted, but I think all they can do is kick you out if you have a permit and license to carry it. People forget they have it on them sometimes. I had my buck knife questioned a couple of times at the casino here, I had to go put it in the car.

a reply to: redhorse

If your husband has the proper legal paperwork to carry concealed in that state I say good for him he should continue to carry. As for the businesses who label themselves as gun free zones, it is better to ask for forgiveness then permission from those establishments. The truest point of concealed carry is concealment. They shouldn't even know he has it in the first place. Believe me if something goes down that requires him to intervene to save you, his or someone else's life they will be thanking him.

a reply to: redhorse

Why did the hoodie make you paranoid? You are obviously not comfortable in public if everyone in a hoodie makes you anxious. Body language is a much more clear indicator of people's intentions. Your husband's spidey sense was not triggered by the guys clothing or his body language, and the hooded fellow did not attack anyone. That tells me that his intuition is far better than yours. You should prob trust him a little more than this. It seems he is a reasonable rational person who didn't pull his gun out on a kid because of "clothes".

One question.... was the kid in the hoodie black?

a reply to: redhorse

If your husband has a valid concealed permit and keeps his gun concealed, then there shouldn't be an issue with "nasty aggressive cops." A company policy prohibiting guns, doesn't mean it's legally vaild. Unless businesses are in jurisdictions that have passed laws to prohibit the carry of weapons in their establishments, it is not ILLEGAL. However, if a manager, or company employee ASKS your husband to leave their business, because of their "gun free policy", then your husband should leave, or he can be charged with trespassing. As far as I know, a company needs a state required 30.06 sign to restrict CONCEALED carry.

'situational awareness' isn't only a good idea if armed. May be he thinks a fire arm covers part of not being aware which doesn't seem like the best thinking.

The carrying in place where forbidden seems to show a lack of concern for the law which is troubling to me, maybe not many others. Keeps some bail money on hand. What else did he not "get" in the training for the license, if training was required?

a reply to: redhorse

Depending on the state, the signage used is often not lawful in its display. In Texas you have to have a sign for both conceal and open carry. The sign has to have 1 inch letters and be prominently displayed. The sign has to include the entire quote of the law for both 30.07 and 30.06. Which means your sign will be about 4'x4' in size.

Without that, you are legally allowed to carry your weapon. Unless a member of management asks you personally to leave and remove your weapon from the area, in which case signage is irrelevant.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Yeah, I imagine he stops and checks the signage to determine if it "fits" the legal requirement. Sounds as though the person doesn't care.

a reply to: redhorse

You painted an ineffective picture of the situation. Blaming your husband and even the hoody person and praising yourself for seeing the possible perp. Yet you saw the hoody guy, marked him as a possible bady and did not tell your husband. Some team player you are!

Suppose the hoody person had pulled a knife and slit your throat? What good was it to be aware of a suspicious person if you did nothing (which was fine given that he was not a mass murderer) but you were prepared for what.? That situation was exactly why your husband was carrying...for the unexpected. I treasure the old Zen saying: "Expect nothing. Be prepared for anything."

(In my state, if he carries into a establishment that does not have the proper state authorized gun ban posted per state rules, then he is not doing anything illegal. He may get asked to leave if discovered, but he is not doing anything illegal.)