when #metoo is too many

a reply to: Serdgiam

Thanks Serdgiam. And I think you've added something very important here in what keeps the conversation from ever moving beyond a certain point, or just being derailed, entirely.

There are broader issues afoot, in many of these threads, but it never gets to there because of much of what you describe.
Take care.
tetra50

a reply to: Baddogma

hello, my friend, Baddogma: good to see you make an appearance, and hear what you have to add.....always worthy. it IS a messy topic, not comfortable, no matter what perspective you come from. It's taken me many, many years to learn how to be comfortable in my skin, let go of the shame that really was never mine, enough to talk candidly about this subject.

I'm no angel, myself, but not a serial killer either, from all the pent up anger. My sarcasm about being a waitress aspiring to bartending and being harassed over that was generally missed, I think, the point being whether you're a congressional aide, a staff worker for a famous journalist, or just someone working in a restaurant to pay your bills, provide yourself basic needs like shelter, food, etc., this is not acceptable along with just the struggle of daily living, or at all, for that matter. And specifically not when you are underage and it has nothing to do with what you're opening yourself up to, but instead, just learning what it takes to survive in this world where you suddenly found yourself.


And my being a bartender at one time should have been no excuse for the behavior I encountered from my sober restaurant/owner, nor am I trying to come from a victimized perspective, here.

This is about far more than that. I hope to reach out to everyone on that level....
thanks for reading and replying. have a good thanksgiving, my friend.
tet

a reply to: tetra50

T-day... full on Native American back stabbing and genocide commemorative event! I can ruin any holiday with the cynical underpinnings behinds the myths... except Halloween which is sacrosanct.

But yeah, social striation due to occupation or IQ or sex is natural to a certain extent, but something we should force ourselves beyond. A future to work for would be one where someone is admired, or just accepted, on their own individual merits sans any stereotypes/prejudices.

Not really too much to ask for.

*oh, and I was a tad too autistic there... "Hi Tetra!" back atcha.

a reply to: tetra50

Hi,

Ok firstly, let me apologise.. when I referred to "you" in my previous post as in "if you..." I meant it in the sense of "if people..." as opposed to you personally... my intent wasn't to disrespect you and I apologise that I didn't make myself clear.

Secondly, there is no need to be "sorry that those things happened" because I'm really not at all bothered by it. I don't feel like something happened TO ME, I feel like something happened and that was it. .. I have no negative feelings about it and it really doesn't bother me at all...

In regards to why I brought it up in the context of this discussion: I keep seeing "we need to have an open conversation about this" or words to that effect, but nobody actually wants to have an open conversation about this. What they actually want, as evidenced by the oft repeated calls for men specifically to acknowledge this issue and the fact that it is repeatedly referred to as a male issue, is to have a closed discussion defined by specific parameters as it relates (in the main) to gender and (to a lesser extent) age and power. Unless we get away from this and really address all sides equally there will be no progress in this discussion.

The field I work in requires that I undergo frequent and detailed training in a variety of issues relating to vulnerability, safeguarding etc. I am required to regularly undergo training on domestic violence for instance.

ALL the literature involved with this training refers to the victims as "her", "she" etc and all the perpetrators as "he". When I spoke with the facilitator about this she acknowledged that this is a ridiculous state of affairs. The research suggests that men are at least as likely to experience domestic violence as women. When you factor in the new definitions of abuse and the more abstract issues (that include coercion, manipulation and systematic verbal/mental abuse) there is some suggestion that it may be that males are disproportionately affected.

Do you know how many resources (centres, hostels, beds, support groups etc) there are in the UK for women? They are numerous. Compared to those which are available to men, which can be counted on two hands.

The reason I raise this is that there are systematic, inherent biases and discrimination relating to both genders. However, as with this discussion, only one side is receiving any attention and being addressed.

Until ALL sides are acknowledged there will be only limited progress.

In regards to your suggestion that somehow our society being geared towards sex, power etc being the route cause of this: you have to ask why these things have become such an influence in the first place? They have taken on a significance because we as humans PLACE significance on these things naturally. To suggest that media etc has caused this is innacurate. To suggest that our human predilection for these things are solely responsible is also not entirely accurate. These attitudes and influences arise simultaneously. One feeds the other. It is a chicken and egg situation. The "blame" lies partly in human nature and partly with the systems we have constructed as a result of our nature.

We cannot directly control other people's actions, we can only ever control our responses to those situations. If you (or one, if you'd prefer) choose to be unaffectd by these things then you will be.

It's your choice.

(That does not cover serious business like rape etc to quite the same degree, although personal reaction/perspective absolutely DOES influence an individual's ability to deal with those situations too, though that is a somewhat different discussion)


ETA: Oh and the matter of consequences is very much relevant to this discussion. Whilst we're pontificating about people feeling they have a right to grab somebody's knee or cop a quick feel of their ass or make a remark about their appearance people, men as a matter of fact, are losing their entire life's work, income, family life, respect, pensions, likely self worth or even their lives (we all know the stats regarding male suicide right), all because it is now de rigueur to drag up twenty year old, stale nothingburgers and slander men for actions that barely even register on the scale of "bad # that happens to people".

Frankly I think it's disgusting and belittles the experience of those who have genuinely suffered in this life. I see every day, first hand, the results of genuine abuse and it sickens me to see the kind of pathetic nonsense that's plastered all over the news media on an almost daily basis and the attempt to conflate regular everyday, normal (though unacceptable) human behaviours with deviant, criminal and severely damaging ones..

I wish to add a little clarity to my previous post as I feel it was a little disjointed (due to the fact I've typed it over a 6 hour period in two minute instalments whilst I'm at work).

I feel the main issue, which I think perhaps got lost in my ramblings, is that the perception of these events (by individuals and by society) is skewed.

There is an inherent victim mentality regards men doing things that are a bit inappropriate (though arise from normal mental processes) and the severity of this is amplified and exaggerated. Whereas, conversely, actions taken by females (again inappropriate but arising from normal human mental processes) are downplayed or, more commonly, entirely ignored.

This perception contributes GREATLY to the hoohar and hysterical responses we're seeing.

If the societal perception and norm regards actions 'against' women was the same as that of actions 'against' men (i.e. it's no big deal, not the end of the world etc.. and once again, I am NOT talking about rape and serious abuse here) then there'd be a lot fewer unhappy victims and a lot more happy and well adjusted people with funny stories to tell (like me... the one about my experience with the Lt. is pretty funny for example)

You want to talk about the influence of societal attitudes in this matter: if the world stopped telling women they were victims, and they were brought up with the same attitude we instil in men then a good proportion of this would go away.

Is this not still just sexism? Woman are victims when someone touches their boobie but when woman grab a man's junk then it's just a bit of a laugh?

It's all about how you choose to respond to these situations..

a reply to: tetra50


I'll never understand fully how that could feel to live through that as a female, maybe in another life
I completely agree with your sentiment that if you are a sociopath you climb the ladder further than others who are not
and that is wrong.

I am looked down upon by some of my male peers for being compassionate towards others , like its a weakness
but compassion is a strength , this was more so in my younger years.

not every male is the same as you possibly know given your time here on earth Im sure you have met plenty of nice males who havent harassed you in any way shape or form.

You are right about your husband not willing to address these issues because it mirrors his own behaviour
this is an exercise of the ego.
When you protest so publicly about something you dislike or you want to dismiss then its because you have those issues yourself.
If you refuse to address these issues its because you dont want to admit you face them every day.

the ego is pretty crafty at making you believe you do the things you do for your own benefit regardless of others emotions.

When in most cases people abuse others , because they too have suffered abuse or they have some physiological abnormality which renders their brain incapable of compassion etc.

Car accidents , making people more aggressive , less likely to empathise etc.

The whole species could do well with a bit of self reflection, but no one wants to admit the darkness inside them exists
when its there staring us right in the face.

if you want the world to be a better place, then start with yourself as the first port of call.

the same with the klingon desire for battle , you must defeat the enemy within before you can be a true warrior

You are right about your husband not willing to address these issues because it mirrors his own behaviour 
this is an exercise of the ego. 
When you protest so publicly about something you dislike or you want to dismiss then its because you have those issues yourself. 

Absolute amateur psychology and hogwash. Without a proper assessment you have absolutely no idea what people's motivations are or are not.

I have "protested so publicly" in this thread, yet I have NEVER once in all my life harassed, groped, threatened, intimidated or even made suggestive comments to a woman. I was "raised right", almost exclusively by my mother. Doesn't mean that I can't recognise blinding hypocrisy, double standards, societal hysteria and a witch hunt when i see it...

If you want to get into amateur/internet/couch psychology then this:

I am looked down upon by some of my male peers for being compassionate towards others , like its a weakness

Is much more indicative of "an exercise in ego" than anything else written above..

I dont think I explained myself properly ,I meant that tetras husband will refuse to acknowledge these things because he himself has acted this way before . It is common for humans to do this because their ego will convince you that you are none of these things yet you have these behavioural traits and simply refuse to acknowledge them or dont realise yourself.

People do this , its quite common for humans to engage in this behaviour

the man who rallies against gay marriage and LGBTQi and was caught having sex with a man in his office.
Ok thats a pretty extreme example , but we humans are pretty good at convinving our selves the grass is greener and that we are free from blame when it comes to various negative behaviours and its always someone elses fault.

Im not sure why you think , me saying that my peers have looked down upon me in the male realm for being compassionate , this is the case with young males in Scotland , you cant show any form of compassion or level of intelligence for being outcast as a "teachers pet" , a "fag" , etc etc
this is common amongst young males, well at least in my limited experience in Scotland growing up that was most definitely the case.

You cant be too smart, you cant be too nice, you cant speak properly , you cant say you like girls too much .
This carries on into late highschool and then you move into the world of adulthood where things change drastically

Can you explain to me why you think that sentence is an exercise in ego ?

Not that it isnt, as far as I am aware most thoughts are actions of the ego unless it involves observation only
like any thought involving judegment is normally an act of ego.

Im not shocked. I've been grabbed without consent by three different women in my life. I figure if women are out there that do these things then there are men that do it as well.

I don't really consider myself much if a looker so it caught me by surprise.

a reply to: sapien82

I know exactly what you meant and it's still amateur psychology and hogwash.

SOMETIMES people behave as you describe for the motivations you're ascribing. However, frequently, they do not. Only a proper psychological assessment can help determine motivation and even then it's more of an art than an exact science.

You're ascribing motive to a man you've never met that you have no knowledge of. Even his wife can't see into his soul so what makes you think you can.

And in regards the ego comment: addressing that is SERIOSULY going to take us off topic but, in (very inadequate summary) our ego is basically made up of the story we tell ourselves and the stories other people tell us about ourselves. If you identify yourself with that story then you are identifying with your ego. If you see yourself as compassionate and others as looking down on you for that then that is based only on your perceptions and assumptions i.e. the story you are telling yourself.

Pretty much at the top of the list of qualities in my job is empathy and compassion (along with communication and a handful of other things I won't get into). I am not looked down upon for these qualities, in fact they are celebrated and desirable.

Context.

Perception.

Internal narrative.

Vital in being a healthy and well balanced 'person'
(Though as I said in a different thread; person is derived from the notion of a mask one wears. None of us are our persona, none of us are our ego. That is simply a convenient tool for interacting with and measuring the world. Fundamentally, that is not who we are).

Sorry that my reply drifted off topic somewhat

a reply to: Throes

I think that men dont tend to get so bothered about being groped by woman because they dont expect that behaviour from females and therefore are surprised when it happens and more often than not they feel some form of humiliation because they have been dominated by a female , or they feel awkward , or they become shy!
or they think "YES" finally a woman on my level

What was once the strutting peacock male with puffed chest now cowers in front of the dominant female who grabbed his ass in front of his buddies.

Ive seen it happen to a few "alpha males" they just dont know how to react.


I dont assign to alpha beta nonsense because I simply think there are either males who are driven by their ego and males who can work around their ego

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Throes

I think that men dont tend to get so bothered about being groped by woman because they dont expect that behaviour from females and therefore are surprised when it happens and more often than not they feel some form of humiliation because they have been dominated by a female , or they feel awkward , or they become shy!
or they think "YES" finally a woman on my level

What was once the strutting peacock male with puffed chest now cowers in front of the dominant female who grabbed his ass in front of his buddies.

Ive seen it happen to a few "alpha males" they just dont know how to react.

I turned and coughed like a Dr exam. Lol

a reply to: Throes

Indeed.

Do you consider yourself to be a victim?

Should the perpetrators be vilified and stripped of their humanity, dignity and livelihoods?

a reply to: Throes

And I laughed it off..

It was a bit of fun from their point of view and of absolutely no consequence from mine...

When my colleague commented that she "wouldn't mind getting hold of that" (my ass) the other day, as I was bending over, I laughed, gave it a wiggle and told her to keep dreaming...

a reply to: Indrasweb


Well tetra explained her husbands emotional state and that he had already done this himself so it wasnt an assumption of his mental state . I had used the information provided.

So when my mates react to me showing others compassion as calling me a fairy or a do gooder etc and put me down for expressing interest in another human being and showing them compassion
because I can empathise with others emotional states that is my own ego , so the objective fact that they called me names etc to my face in the moment where Id shown compassion to another person

I think that my experience of those multiple situations growing up and that was not an assumption and it was objective fact

As I have explained, this is male behaviour growing up in Scotland . Males will attack either physically or verbally anyone who shows compassion , intellect etc , it may not be the case with the youth of today but it was certainly a trope of teenage male life in Scotland during my time in highschool. It was considered Un-cool to be nice or smart etc.

If there are others scots here, ask them I can guarantee they will share that sentiment of growing up , if they are the same age as me anyway.

is it that "toxic masculinity" that Ive been hearing about recently

a reply to: Indrasweb

Although Congratulation on whatever your job is I hold people in high regard who show empathy and compassion to others as their primary role in life !

a reply to: sapien82

"I even know he's probably been on that end of that behavior if he had the power to before."

I don't know how to highlight text but the key word there is PROBABLY. (Edit: sorted it)

She is assuming, and, by extension, so were you.


In response to your bit about your experiences:

I didn't say that what you say happened did not happen. I'm saying you're choosing to ascribe meaning, significance and power to those experiences.

Again, this is off topic but who is this "me" that these things "happened to"?

It is your self identity, not your self. It is your ego and not your true nature.

We can choose to identify with the "me", to change and mould and adapt that concept of "me" based upon the reactions and behaviours of others, or we can recognise that these experiences and our responses to them are simply challenges and manipulations of our ego. Step outside of your egoic concept of self and you will find that these "issues" or "ideas" do not inform, control or define who you are.

Sorry that this is getting way off topic here and honestly a proper discussion of this would take pages and pages.

Anyway,

The notion of "toxic masculinity" is a joke unless we are prepared to accept, examine, pick apart and eleveate to the same status the notion of "toxic feminity". But you won't find a serious discussion about the latter and so I am inclined to ignore the discussion about "toxic masculinity" with the same degree of apathy and disinterest.


ETA:

Perhaps it would be more pertinent to discuss the concept of "toxic humanity", which can then reasonably be divided into predominantly male and predominantly female characteristics. However, until that happens, we are simply perpetuating a fals narrative and therefore will make little to no progress in really addressing the issues we have as a society.

a reply to: tetra50

Now, as to why I'm writing this thread and telling that story: I live with a man my age, 55. I even know he's probably been on that end of that behavior if he had the power to before. He doesn't disbelieve what he hears in the news these days, but frankly he thinks these women are just whining, at a certain point. But my position is the reason he responds that way, is he doesn't really want to look in the mirror and confront his own behavior, and because there's just this assumption that if one has power over another, this is just part of what that means.

Hi Tetra50, great topic although a difficult one.

So, I read through the whole thread and what I think is that lines must be drawn as to how we view or rate the severity of sexual assault and harassment, as pertains to power differences, age of perpetrator or how he/she was raised in a time where certain behaviours were acceptable and are not now, age and intellectual capacity of person being assaulted/harrassed (naieve, disadvantaged in some way, in a position of no power...) etc.

So if a man or woman does not ask for a kiss but forces one, is that simply to be brushed off? Why did that person feel they were entitled to do that? Why did that person not ask for a kiss first, to test the waters? Can I categorize that action as a lack of respect for that person's dignity, feelings and prime authority over their body/sexuality, and health, regardless of gender? I would say 'yes' to that categorization. This happened to me from out of the blue a man I did not know kissed me at a party and I was not amused. What went through my mind was does he have Herpes Simplex? where had his mouth been? what other diseases can I get from a stranger kissing me - and I am no prude.

www.self.com...

The precise lines for the more serious sexual criminal assault cases can only be drawn through legal courtroom trials, because there are always two sides of the story, along with complex human/sexual interactions, misunderstandings and confusions, which intersect our lives daily.

All I can say is never have I witnessed so many brave people coming forward and overcoming their fear of further victimization and casting aside the societal-inflicted shame and victimization that's been going on for way too long.

I expect to see a major shift in the behaviours of those in power over people in vulnerable positions to think twice before they act.

The times they are a changing.

a reply to: Indrasweb

Hey yeh she did assume that he had done so before , but in light of the circumstances I'd like to think that a woman knows their husband's behaviour , but that again isnt reality because often the case is that people dont know one another as well as they think they do.
Agreed it was an assumption on both our part.

I understand now that myself isnt really my true being, after reading a new earth by eckart tolle and listening to some ram dass, and reading the tao te ching I realise this that me is not me
What I was bringing up was an objective fact about male behaviour in the teens is that males dont recognise that they fulfill their ego desires unconsciously. My friends or companions who chose to slag me off were only doing so to make themselves feel better in a situation where they were under developed to deal with the emotional responses they felt by the acts of compassion or otherwise which they were subject to. Young males often resort to pack mentality and take queues from the perceived leader. The group follow in order to "fit in" and will often join in on the act of slagging others.
The reason I wanted to highlight this was to show that males ignorant of the ego and awareness of self act through their ego and act out aggresively or with physical violence when confronted with emotional states derived from anxiety or fear.
Females at that age in highschool dont have that male ego now the reason I say male is because we tend towards the aggresive or more physical responses to emotional states.
So from these repeated experiences I observed that in society it is often the case humans will react in a negative way to genuine compassion or positive things because they are afraid , anxious or paranoid that something is shady about it as if its not real.

Anyway I have become really interested in the subject of the ego , identity and self awareness.

If you were up for it I would like to hear more of your thoughts on various subjects which I believe are centered around identity of the self and the ego.
Possibly we could create an ATS discord channel if others were so inclined to join us.

Apologies for the misunderstanding and for the thread drift.

however I cant help but think alot of our problems and those outlined by the OP can be resolved or at least accepted by being more self aware and not living within our ego desires.

Indrasweb: I will expand upon what Sapien wrote in this way:

And in regards the ego comment: addressing that is SERIOSULY going to take us off topic but, in (very inadequate summary) our ego is basically made up of the story we tell ourselves and the stories other people tell us about ourselves. If you identify yourself with that story then you are identifying with your ego. If you see yourself as compassionate and others as looking down on you for that then that is based only on your perceptions and assumptions i.e. the story you are telling yourself.

But it's the story you tell yourself to parse your experiences in the world, comparatively, and it certainly contains outside influences such has what you observe, experience, and how you are treated.

Now, another thing I'd like to expand upon is from what I've read, at least some of what you have described is just flirting, and you have participated. That is very different from what I am describing. I've worked in male dominated industries for many years, and certainly know the difference between flirtation and what I am describing here.

I admit that flirtation and "passes," are a fine line between violation, but again, I am describing violation. I wasn't open to it, wasn't of age in part of what I wrote, wasn't flirtatios in any way with any of these men.

Another distinction, is I didn't see in any of what you described, any of those women telling you that you're job was on the line, if they didn't accept and return the advance.
Hope you are having a good Thanksgiving, if it is indeed a holiday you celebrate.
tetra50