Could you pull the trigger?

a reply to: CynConcepts
Yeah, I know, I'm being a bit outspoken about this one.

For some reason this is really resonating with me right now. No idea why, never anything I had really even considered until today. But so it goes. I do feel strongly about it apparently.

a reply to: Noncents


I think you missed the point of the OP. It has nothing to do with advocating for the murder of children. Obviously that isn't what anyone is saying.

The entire point was to demonstrate what kind of decisions LEOs have to make, and how someone without training/experience would react to those same situations. Did you miss the part where she almost shot the guy with a cellphone/wallet? Or where someone took her weapon (which is a life or death situation)?

The scenario with the child was designed to illustrate how a situation even with concrete justification - that gun was real and she showed she was willing to use it - is unthinkable. Yet several officers have in fact had to make calls like that. Sure, the situations may not have been exactly 1:1 but they never are.

I can see that there are those who are biased against all LE and will criticize and attack it no matter what. I don't think you'll meet a LEO or retiree that will tell you there isn't room for improvement. Of course there is, there always is. But showing blind hatred to everyone with a badge is just as wrong. You are entitled to your opinion, though. Part of what makes America great.

To those who took the video for its intended purpose, thank you. I hope it was at least insightful, if not thought provoking.

originally posted by: Bramble Iceshimmer
a reply to: JBurns

Yes, why does being a kid make her life more valuable than mine. She may have been brainwashed by an degenerate parent but it still comes down to life or death.

How old are you? No seriously, because at 58 any kids life is worth
more to me than my own. Wouldn't I be selfish if it wasn't?

a reply to: JBurns

As soon as the officer sees me giving him the up most respect and cooperation, he can stop being a dick. Some do but most do not. That is my bottom line.


Rarely have I encountered a senior officer that is not very polite and respectful back to me. The young thugs with a badge though....

a reply to: Noncents

Naturally, it is emotionally charging. I will agree with your prior post that 500 incidents in 2016 is too many! One is too many. Unfortunately, I don't see the problem with the majority of those who wear badges. So many want to blame and attack the officers responding, but forget that they ARE responding to perceived threats.

We should be asking why the offenders are becoming more aggressive and not respecting the law enforcers? Why are they being more confrontive? LEO is forced to train for even a child confrontation because good officers are getting taken by surprise by assuming someone is not intentionally a harmful factor.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: Noncents


I think you missed the point of the OP. It has nothing to do with advocating for the murder of children. Obviously that isn't what anyone is saying.

I do understand which is why I used the word killing instead of murder. The situation doesn't matter to me. Cop or not cop, don't kill kids. I am surprised people are so outspoken against that though. To me it's pretty straightforward, either one supports killing the kid or not. Not a lot of gray area there, a little, but not much.

And I do not have a blind hatred for all cops. Not sure that was actually intended at me though. I do have a couple cop friends, good ones, that are decent people. I think they've got a tough job that I wouldn't want but I also think that the way we as a society view our police officers is a bit out of skew overall.

I don't think the cops should be allowed to kill people, even in self defense and keep their jobs. Each time a cop kills or even hurts another person it should be treated like they were not cops, equally.

I understand they've got a job to do and people can be stupid and make that hard and dangerous. That's sadly part of the job description.

a reply to: ttobban

If you consider directly addressing points made by other members to be steering the conversation then yea, I’ll cop to that. I mean I know it’s not something you’re too keen on, but I’m pretty big on it.

originally posted by: Noncents
a reply to: Shamrock6
Not at all. I'm not ignoring facts. I'm requesting more information.

How old was the teenager? Was he like 12 or like 17?

Like, what the hell does it matter? Intent trumps age.

If I'm a cop staring down the barrel of a rifle I'm not asking for I.D. There is an imminent danger to the officer and the public if someone is outside a vehicle with a weapon pointed at someone. If anyone underage picks up a weapon, engages it to fire and points it at someone, they were taught by someone to do that. Do not be naive to think that 12 year olds cannot handle a weapon. There are many parents who teach their kids this at a much younger age than 12. And if the public believes that they don't have the mental capacity to understand the consequences of shooting a live person, tough #. They should have known better than to point a live weapon at a live person. You look at the parents at that point.

Responsible parents teach their children not to point a weapon at someone unless they are prepared to use that weapon. This, I'm sure, is what LE goes by when ANYone is pointing a weapon at them. They HAVE to assume the weapon is going to be used against them, so they have every right to defend themselves.

It is my belief that if you point a weapon at a cop, prepare to see what the inside of a body bag looks like.

originally posted by: randyvs

originally posted by: Bramble Iceshimmer
a reply to: JBurns

Yes, why does being a kid make her life more valuable than mine. She may have been brainwashed by an degenerate parent but it still comes down to life or death.

How old are you? No seriously, because at 58 any kids life is worth
more to me than my own. Wouldn't I be selfish if it wasn't?

The difference for a LEO is it is not simply their life they are considering at that moment of decision. As in this hypothetical situation, They recognize that if they do not act, not only is their partners life lost, but the father and daughter may go on the run endangering other officers and yes, innocent civilian and children during a shoot out or ambush! They have the responsibility in their duty to stop the violence from escalating.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Thank you for highlighting the issue from the LEO POV. Would you please comment on Kettu's post below. One of the first where I actually agree with them on an issue. I like when that happens.

Here is the comment.

You're not a "good cop" if you stay silent about the bad cops.

Period. End of story.

P

originally posted by: randyvs
How old are you? No seriously, because at 58 any kids life is worth
more to me than my own.

Well, I'm not aghast about you asking because I earned every gray hair and wrinkle. Let just say I'm 66 and leave it at that,

But to the point, a bad seed is a bad seed whether she is 8 or 80. I'm selfish and want to postpone the dirt nap as long as possible.

originally posted by: Noncents
I don't think the cops should be allowed to kill people, even in self defense and keep their jobs. Each time a cop kills or even hurts another person it should be treated like they were not cops, equally.

Uh, I think you are off track a bit here. Killing someone in self defense is not a crime, so what do you mean by "equally"?

If it were a mass murderer in the act of killing people as fast as they can, indiscriminately, a cop should not shoot them? Is that what you mean, because it sounds like that's what you are saying?

I wonder. If you were standing with your family and someone walked up and started killing your family and you have a gun, would you defend them or let them die? You seem to be saying you would let them die and let the shooter live?

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: DBCowboy

DBC, the difference in your given stance and opinion in this thread compared to another's is HUMILITY! At least for me, it makes a difference.

Okay.

Thanks for the clarification.

a reply to: pheonix358

I’ve offered my opinion on that several times. You’re welcome to look for it.

a reply to: Blaine91555
Rewritten:

First, sentence one and two are not connected. I should have written it differently.

I don't think a cop should be able to keep their job after killing anyone, for any reason. I understand they wouldn't be arrested or anything because, like you said, it's not illegal.

The second sentence was about killing or hurting people while on the clock. They should be treated as if they were any other person and it should go to court or however that is handled as if they were not a cop. No internal affairs, no paid leave.

A cop should definitely stop an active killer. Neutralize the threat without killing. It's not hard, there are plenty of weapons designed to do just that. The police do not need to kill people.

I would definitely save my family if under attack. But I'm a decent enough shot to think I could do that without killing the other person.

Overall, I don't think we should be killing each other in the streets. Cops or regular people alike. Police can police without killing. They can defend and neutralize without killing. People can defend without killing. It's doable. Stop the threat and let the courts handle the real punishment.

Maybe I'm just romanticizing it. That's also possible. That's the way I think it should go though.

originally posted by: randyvs

originally posted by: Bramble Iceshimmer
a reply to: JBurns

Yes, why does being a kid make her life more valuable than mine. She may have been brainwashed by an degenerate parent but it still comes down to life or death.

How old are you? No seriously, because at 58 any kids life is worth
more to me than my own. Wouldn't I be selfish if it wasn't?

I understand that you feel that way, and NO cop wants to kill a kid.

But for the cop that's not always the entire equation, is it?

Let's say, for example, that I'm a cop, and a situation like this arises. The kid just shot my partner, and starts to point the weapon at me.

In the real world, there's a high probability that my life is not the only variable in play. If I DON'T take the shot, what do you think the odds are that this kid, who incidentally has just killed 2 cops, including me, would kill someone else after this?

If MY life is not worth as much as this kid, then how many bodies would this kid have to drop in order for the scales to balance? 1? 2? 10? 20?

In your opinion, how many bodies?

It's not always so cut and dried for a cop in situations like this, and my life may not be the only one at stake.

a reply to: Bramble Iceshimmer

But to the point, a bad seed is a bad seed whether she is 8 or 80. I'm selfish and want to postpone the dirt nap as long as possible.

I find no fault in your reasoning and I welcome your honesty.

a reply to: MteWampwww.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: CynConcepts

It's not always so cut and dried for a cop in situations like this, and my life may not be the only one at stake.

No I absolutely agree there are going to variables in every scenario
where a cop may have no choice but to bring down a child with a
firearm. And other times the variables can make the right call near
impossible? And I do sympathize with law enforcement as I said earlier.

a reply to: Noncents

Thanks and I get what you're saying now.

I don't think you can confidently shoot someone in a non-lethal way and know they would not keep shooting. Real life is not the movies or a shooting range. Once that adrenaline is flowing, winging a person won't stop them. People could die as a direct result of trying to not kill them. Innocent people.

Why should a cop lose their job and career for protecting the public? That part seems fairly irrational to me. A cop saves peoples lives or their own, they get punished?