The Senate Tax Cut Is Actually A Tax Increase.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Aazadan

Yeah. Let's tax the next generation's schooling. You know the generation that typically has no money? That sounds like a grand slam idea!

They don't realistically expect to get any revenue off of it. They just want to prevent people from going to college. That way they'll go to boot camps, or trade schools, or just drop out and work at McDonalds. They don't want a future generation of lawyers, engineers, and scientists. They want a low education work force, where only the elite can go to school because the networking advantages of places like Harvard are ceasing to matter. So they need to make all education exclusive again.

Also Republicans have recently convinced themselves that college = liberal, so there's that as well.

a reply to: jjkenobi

Even that is questionable, as the tax cuts for individuals expire after 7 years, while the corporate cuts are permanent. These cuts are also pure deficit spending. And doesn't take into account that part of this bills balancing is removing ACA subsidies/mandate which means you'll have one more product to buy.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Dude. Just stop. Your lazy attempt to have the democrats co-own this bill is bad. The republicans wrote it, they own it. I

Dude, political cheerleaders as yourself that attempt to smear the other party for everything , is the reason why our gov't is broken.

Your reading comprehension is also limited , as I didn't dismiss the republicans for taking ownership.

This thread is about the tax bill so bringing up those other things just to make the Dems look bad too is a distraction.

No the distraction is your post that acts like the Republican are the first or only party that BS the people or that f things up.

The reality is that you political cheerleaders are more concerned about pouncing on your chest then really fixing the issue and holding your own party accountable.

The truth of the matter is this tax plan is sham just like the previous ones before it, but where was your outcry for the left?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Also Republicans have recently convinced themselves that college = liberal, so there's that as well.

It's strange, granted I'm in southern Ohio but I have around 400 semester credit hours under my belt. That's a bit over ~110 college level courses I've taken. In all that time I can only think of two outward liberal professors I've had, both have been really recent, and only one of those two actually required you give him liberal talking points in a paper (it was a Geology class, and you basically failed if you in any way refuted or questioned climate change). On the other hand, I've had many times more conservative professors, including professors that require papers on concepts like morality to be written as if you're a Christian and there's only one true God out there.

Maybe it's different at bigger schools, but at the ones I've gone to I've never seen the stereotype. If anything it has been the opposite. And, in most of my classes (at least 80% of them) politics never even comes up, one way or the other.

a reply to: Aazadan

Of course the stereotype is false. Every time that idiotic bit is brought up it's almost always surrounding one class and one professor at the college. Then they go on to try to link that one professor's extreme beliefs and requirements to the whole school and then finally the entire college system. If you are getting a BS degree, the amount of time you spend in the liberal arts building is pretty much summed up by your gen ed classes.

I majored in Computer Science. I never had a professor like the ones that ATS members talk about. I practically lived in my school's comp sci/math building. Which coincidentally was located right above a Bill Batemen's sports bar and had absolutely NO baring on why I spent a lot of time at that building. Ok, that's a lie. I did my homework there all the time between draft refills.

a reply to: interupt42

I'm going to cut out your ad hominems and only address the one pertinent thing you said relating to the OP. If you think I'm a political cheerleader then you don't know me at all.

The truth of the matter is this tax plan is sham just like the previous ones before it, but where was your outcry for the left?

Which tax plan did the Dems pass that was a sham that you are referring to? All the recent tax plans I remember have all been Republican bills. So please jog my memory.

I feel that income taxes are completely against the constitution.

Just being required to submit a 1099 or any other tax form is a direct violation of your 5th amendment right in regards to self-incriminating evidence.


I think this whole tax reform is just to keep the people thinking that their income tax taken by the government is required and necessary.

Hell, all our taxes do is pay the interest we owe to the Fed reserve bank.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Which tax plan did the Dems pass that was a sham that you are referring to? All the recent tax plans I remember have all been Republican bills. So please jog my memory.

So taxes haven't been an issue before until the republicans passed their bills?

Also are you suggesting that the crappy republicans tax bills are shameful ,but a democrat controlled gov't who choses to overlook those shameful bills and does nothing about them are innocent?

The issue is both parties not one and they work together. That is why the GOP that badmouthed obamacare as the antichrist for the last 8 years did nothing when they had a chance to get rid of it.

The DNC and the RIGHT are one in the same via actions or inactions to ensure the lobbyist always win.


You want to fix taxes and make it fair for everyone then we need a flat tax type of system with no deductions. Neither the GOP or the DNC is willing or wanting to do that.

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
I feel that income taxes are completely against the constitution.

Just being required to submit a 1099 or any other tax form is a direct violation of your 5th amendment right in regards to self-incriminating evidence.


I think this whole tax reform is just to keep the people thinking that their income tax taken by the government is required and necessary.

Hell, all our taxes do is pay the interest we owe to the Fed reserve bank.

That is a really weird interpretation. That said, constitutional or not, income taxes are the best form of taxation we currently have.

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Which tax plan did the Dems pass that was a sham that you are referring to? All the recent tax plans I remember have all been Republican bills. So please jog my memory.

So taxes haven't been an issue before until the republicans passed their bills?

Also are you suggesting that the crappy republicans tax bills are shameful ,but a democrat controlled gov't who choses to overlook those shameful bills are innocent.

The issue is both parties not one and they work together. That is why the GOP that badmouthed obamacare as the antichrist for the last 8 years did nothing when they have a chance to get rid of it.

The DNC and the RIGHT are one in the same via actions or inactions to ensure the lobbyist always win.

I think he was suggesting that Democrats haven't touched taxes in 30 years. Tax rates are always a huge hot button issue for Republicans, but tax bills are rarely if ever proposed much less passed. Obama touched taxes once in 8 years and that was to lower them, extending the Bush cuts at Republican urging. W cut taxes once with his plan. The tax cut bill under Clinton was again a Republican bill. And before Clinton you had 12 years of Republicans in power.

I don't know the complete history of tax bills, but I do know that in order to find a Democrat bill you're going to look to the Reagan years where they increased taxes, or possibly back even further than that.

a reply to: Aazadan

Obama touched taxes once in 8 years and that was to lower them, extending the Bush cuts at Republican urging.

Thats the point. They are one in the same.
The republicans did the same thing with obamacare.

obamacare is as much as the republicans plan as the democrats. Same with the taxes.

End result lobbyist always get what they want regardless of the party in charge and not the people. Sure they throw a bone every once in a while , but its short lived and usually followed by worst long term outcomes for the people.

a reply to: Painterz

The corporations get what the corporations want...

Wanna bet that 75% of those that voted for this tax increase didn't even read the bill...or understand it...they just voted yes or no based upon what some lobbyist said.

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Krazysh0t
So taxes haven't been an issue before until the republicans passed their bills?

Where did I say that? You suggested that I had to be upset over some supposed left leaning tax bill. So I asked what it was.

Also are you suggesting that the crappy republicans tax bills are shameful ,but a democrat controlled gov't who choses to overlook those shameful bills and does nothing about them are innocent?

The last time we had a democrat controlled Congress (you know the entity in charge of taxes?) they were pushing through a major health care overhaul and it could be reasonably argued they didn't have the time to do two major bills at the same time. All the other times I distinctly recall Congress arguing back and forth trying to even agree on how to fund the government, let alone pass tax bills because neither party was totally in control.

The issue is both parties not one and they work together. That is why the GOP that badmouthed obamacare as the antichrist for the last 8 years did nothing when they had a chance to get rid of it.

Holy #! They do NOT work together. That is more obvious than ever with the hyper-partisan climate we live in. How long will you believe a lie that is literally being proven untrue to your face on a daily basis. I can understand believing this back during the Clinton or Bush years when things weren't so hyper-partisan and compromise wasn't such a dirty word, but these days believing that is just pure willful ignorance.

The DNC and the RIGHT are one in the same via actions or inactions to ensure the lobbyist always win.

That's like stating that both rapists and thieves are one and the same because they are both criminals. No. There are clear differences and just because they both have examples of skirting the Constitution doesn't mean they are in cahoots. Unless you have direct evidence proving this then you are just saying nonsense that you think sounds good.

You want to fix taxes and make it fair for everyone then we need a flat tax type of system with no deductions. Neither the GOP or the DNC is willing or wanting to do that.

No. We just need to raise taxes across the board. We have a sky high economy. We should be increasing taxes and the interest rate so we have a buffer for when the economy sinks again, and it WILL sink again. We shouldn't, however, be shuffling tax money around so the rich save money and the poor have to spend more. To be honest, we shouldn't even be discussing cutting taxes, and we DAMN well shouldn't be lying about a tax reshuffling by calling it a tax decrease.

a reply to: Aazadan

They outright want to destroy the concept of high skill jobs in this country.

I don't doubt that a bit.
low skill jobs = more control = less motivation for change.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Holy #! They do NOT work together. That is more obvious than ever with the hyper-partisan climate we live in.

hyper-partisan is how they work together. You are an example of it. You protect the left at all cost and blame the right for all the issues. Your counter part on the right does the same.

What neither one of you do is hold your own party accountable where you can make a difference. This gives them carte blanche to continue to screw over the general public while the rich keep getting richer.

If you think politicians and billion dollar global corporations care more about political ideals or the publics interest, its your right to live in a fantasy world. It makes no sense to take 50/50 odds on billion dollar deals when you don't have too.

In my reality, money is the driving factor behinds politics and business. Regardless of Democrat or Republican control , money always wins. It makes no difference which party is in office.

www.cambridge.org... zens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B

Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.

To be honest, we shouldn't even be discussing cutting taxes,

that I can agree with.

originally posted by: interupt42
End result lobbyist always get what they want regardless of the party in charge and not the people. Sure they throw a bone every once in a while , but its short lived and usually followed by worst long term outcomes for the people.

Interestingly, lobbying is something that's pretty damn cheap to do. Most legislation only costs a few thousand dollars, maybe $25,000 in total. I bet someone could fund a PAC through kickstarter and effectively lobby on specific issues.

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek
a reply to: Painterz

The corporations get what the corporations want...

Wanna bet that 75% of those that voted for this tax increase didn't even read the bill...or understand it...they just voted yes or no based upon what some lobbyist said.

Sort of. Basically, the Koch's threatened to totally cut off the RNC in the next election, as well as to fund primaries against everyone eligible unless tax cuts passed. So they're trying hard to push them. Getting them through the House is the easy part, the Senate is harder.

In fact, this tax bill is so bad that even traditional republican donors like Adelson and the Mercers are backing off this bill and don't want to see it. It's essentially just the Koch's still pushing it. It's not a 0% chance of passing, but since they included an ACA mandate repeal in the bill to get it under the deficit limit, they probably don't have the numbers as that alienates Maine and Alaska, putting the Republicans at 49, even if Flake and McCain go for it.

a reply to: interupt42

More ad hominems where you tell me my beliefs. I'm done talking to you. I shouldn't have to keep telling you that I'm not a Democrat for you to drop that line of reasoning. You clearly are only interested in your own beliefs.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: interupt42
End result lobbyist always get what they want regardless of the party in charge and not the people. Sure they throw a bone every once in a while , but its short lived and usually followed by worst long term outcomes for the people.

Interestingly, lobbying is something that's pretty damn cheap to do. Most legislation only costs a few thousand dollars, maybe $25,000 in total. I bet someone could fund a PAC through kickstarter and effectively lobby on specific issues.

There are also lots of hidden money being thrown around. It cost over half a billion to run for POTUS .

Although i do like your kickstarter idea. However, more importantly it will take both individual republicans and individual democrats to temporarily put aside their political ideals and come together and focus only on the following issues.

1. Enforce congress term limits

2. campaign financing reform.

3. Lobbying reform

4. doing away with super-pacs

5. Revolving door between gov't and private sector

6. Transparency

Until we focus and address those 6 things as best as we can , its really pointless to discuss any other issue such as taxes,healthcare, etc.

Eitherwise you are expecting a person with conflict of interest to help you at the expense of hurting themselves. Its not going to happen and hasn't happened. We are in an endless cycle where the DNC,GOP, and the MSM has the public focused on the symptoms and the real issue of conflict of interest.

But can I keep my Doctor??

Happy Friday