The word fact and opinion are not the same word

a reply to: Krazysh0t

That was me opting out of your attempt to derail the thread with personal attack BS.

And there again you just pushed on trying to bait me into it.

Nice try, little buddy. I've been all shia'ites and giggles since the beginning, while you've been alleging I'm throwing hissy fits to you refusing my challenge (meaning I won if anything so why would I be pissed?).

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Telling you to admit that you were wrong isn't a personal attack... Accusing me of projecting IS a personal attack... Do we need a thread to identify the difference between the two for you too?

originally posted by: EternalShadow
I was going to add something substantial to this thread, but having read through it so far, it's definitely in the right forum, (political ideology) and cleverly manipulative in its scope. I'm not that easily fooled.

Oh, crap, you figured me out. It was my intention through the powers of my superior intellect to manipulate you into giving all your money to me and making me the supreme Overlord of the planet under a single authoritarian centrist government.

Good luck guys.

I had this debate a while back in another thread where a guy couldn't grasp the concept that opinions cannot be false nor true by definition.

The facts that opinions are based on may be false, but the person's belief is their own and therefore cannot be one way or the other. It is their personal point of view. An analogy I used then:

I see the sun as yellow. My sister sees the sun as orange. Facts would say that neither of us is correct, but our opinions are based on our views.

I believe (my opinion) is that people who can't see the difference between opinions and facts are the same people who are so wrapped up in having to be "right" that they reject anything contrary to their views. They are unable to process the idea that they may be wrong about something and find it easier to just plug their ears and start hollering "nuh uh, nuh uh, nuh uh"

The sad part, there's no real reasoning with people like that. You'll never win because they cannot fathom the idea of being wrong.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

This is ATS. The discussion is all good. Let's try to keep the ad hominem attacks to a minimum.

I am still trying to see your point of view.

a reply to: Eshel

You and I are of the same mind!

Saying Hillary is a criminal is an opinion. If there are bank records showing money transfers to her personal account followed by quid pro quo actions in the State Department that would be a fact that might result in an indictment. But unless you have real facts, Hillary will never be indicted based on right wing opinions. Losing the election is the most punishment she will receive for being a right wing lightning rod of vitriol reactions.

This is a lame-a** thread meant to try and uphold the standards of one Hillary Clinton

Fact or opinion ?
I vote the former.

a reply to: Gothmog

What you just said is an opinion.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Something that I find interesting is that when given the topic of opinion vs fact a quite large preportion of people will use the question to put forward thier own opinion on something and try to pass it off as fact.

I find it interesting that when someone takes the concept to the outer limits, several people refuse to answer the punchline question at the heart of it all, allege the person is ruining the discussion, and then blames it all on political ideology.

When the way they're leaving it means there's no possibility of there being a factual answer to the question.

But then acting like that isnt an opinion.

Welcome to crazy world, home of Homo sapiens!!

What question has gone unanswered?

And

Do you now accept that when you stated that America was spending too much on the military that was a opinion and not a fact?

originally posted by: Gothmog

Saying Hillary is a criminal is an opinion. If there are bank records showing money transfers to her personal account followed by quid pro quo actions in the State Department that would be a fact that might result in an indictment. But unless you have real facts, Hillary will never be indicted based on right wing opinions. Losing the election is the most punishment she will receive for being a right wing lightning rod of vitriol reactions.

This is a lame-a** thread meant to try and uphold the standards of one Hillary Clinton

Fact or opinion ?
I vote the former.

Opinion.

a reply to: Gothmog

This is a lame-a** thread meant to try and uphold the standards of one Hillary Clinton

Opinon and in my opinion not a very good one.

DP

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: dfnj2015

Something else to consider: "truth" and "fact" are not the same thing. Half truths are facts as well, and a half truth is not a truth at all.

I appreciate your contribution. I've always thought "truth" is very close to "fact". Truth has a connotative meaning with philosophy and judgment. Facts are simply things like: The sky is blue.

A truth would be something like: The more you know the less you know.

The reason I bring it up is because Orwell warned against blurring the lines between the two, and how facts would be used to usurp truth.

Which is pretty much what happened in the last election, and continues to this day. Hillary and her constant droning about "fact checking" was a reminder to me that this is something to be intellectually vigilant about.

Not that Trump gets his facts straight. And not that something can be lacking in facts yet still be truthful, such as opinions about the intents of people who have yet to make their intention known. Your opinion on them may very well be truthful, even when lacking in facts.

Point being: they aren't really the same, despite a typical inference that seems to claim otherwise.

a reply to: Gothmog

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

The intention of this thread was not to be a pro-Hillary thread. I was just using that as an example because I really want to see her go to prison. It's just other than right wing BS opinions, there doesn't seem to be any facts to support her being indicted. I think people thinking she should go to prison based on political opinions is the right thing to do is a much bigger problem than her evil corrupt soul.

We have to have the rule of law. We have to not allow political opinions to become some kind of Sharia law with the government. I really do not want to see the United States become like Saudi Arabia with every couple of years a couple of dozen political opponents are executed for sedition.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: EternalShadow
I was going to add something substantial to this thread, but having read through it so far, it's definitely in the right forum, (political ideology) and cleverly manipulative in its scope. I'm not that easily fooled.

Oh, crap, you figured me out. It was my intention through the powers of my superior intellect to manipulate you into giving all your money to me and making me the supreme Overlord of the planet under a single authoritarian centrist government.

I knew it.

I gave you my opinion, and you gave me a fact.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The problem with your way of thinking is you are not taking into account people have opinions about which facts are important.

You seem to think opinions supported by facts are some kind of higher truth. Again, as stated many times in the thread, people can take the same facts and come to a opposite conclusion. So there is a very important consideration to be made about how one qualifies ones own opinion as being supported by facts and therefore is some kind of higher truth.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Truth is absolute. That is my point. There is no "higher truth", there is only truth. Facts may lead you to believe something that isn't the truth...but in the end the truth will not change.

Opinions are just guesses. Sometimes they are aligned with truth, sometimes not. Facts are not absolutely necessary to align with truth, as there are other modes such as intuition and empathy.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Truth is not the same word as fact. Truth has other connotations. It still seems like you are saying your opinions are truth, and therefore, are more valid than other people's opinions.

Give me examples of what you consider truth, fact, and opinion so I can see your distinctions.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
What question has gone unanswered?

And

Do you now accept that when you stated that America was spending too much on the military that was a opinion and not a fact?

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

at what point is saying 'too much spending' become inherent fact?

Never?

My point is there has to be a set of conditions where someone could make such a statement is it be a matter of fact.

Meanwhile, if there was ever such a case study in human history we're living it right now.

Now I could go much further at it than the small selection of graphs presented thus far. Although proving that argument wasnt even the point of my work here insofarasmuch as insisting there is a line between opinion/fact, and that unless all statements that exist are "opinion" (since all statements are the results of humans) then then the ability for statements to cross over from opinion to fact is in fact possible.

But when person(s) whom dont like me will turn it into a ad hominem showdown, so far as to allege that's what I've been doing (which the fact there was that was a false assertion) then what's the point?

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Sorry I missed your question.

at what point is saying 'too much spending' become inherent fact?

Never?

Its a bloody good question and I don't think I have a answer for it.

I do have a opinion on it however

I think when we reach a point where the consensus of opinion is that we are spending too much then I think we step from the realm of opinion into fact. So when both the facts and the opinion held by the majority reaches a point where they are all in broad agreement then a opinion becomes fact.

So for example, I think its fair to say its a fact that Hitler was a pretty bad guy, turn thats still a bit of a opinion but its a opinion that holds general consensus and it backed by fact.