The word fact and opinion are not the same word

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Surely you can understand the context that they made their points is different. They are clearly speaking about good or bad as applied as an assessment of something else.

a reply to: hombero

That's your opinion. Is it correct or incorrect?

a reply to: dfnj2015

I think you could have summarized to say:

• Facts can be termed 'true'/'false,' 'correct'/'incorrect,' 'right'/'wrong.'
• Opinions can be properly termed 'supported'/'unsupported,' 'strong'/'weak,' 'logical'/'illogical,' 'rational'/'irrational.'

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: hombero
That's your opinion. Is it correct or incorrect?

I don't understand what you are on about. All we are talking about is fact versus opinion. Are you anti-opinion or anti-fact?

Yes, the word "good" has two o's.

But saying we have too much or too little military or government spending is purely an opinion.

I was more interested in how as a people we can return to a more civilized conversation about political facts. This is what I would call a political fact:

About 15 million children in the United States – 21% of all children – live in families with incomes below the federal poverty threshold, a measurement that has been shown to underestimate the needs of families. Research shows that, on average, families need an income of about twice that level to cover basic expenses.

It may be true or false that 15 million children, 21%, live in poverty. But getting the fact right is a different problem. Assume 21% is the correct fact. Now the question becomes is this a political fact worth addressing with public policy. The follow on opinions about how to deal with this political fact:

1. Government never works so all public policies to address the 21% will fail. So it is best to do nothing.
2. Bring back the 10 cent lunch program Reagan killed so children have enough food to do well in school.

If you think #1 is the "right" choice that is you opinion. There's nothing wrong with your opinion. And your opinion needs to be respected.

However, the same respect also needs to be given to #2. Many people believe government has a role in addressing or attempting to fix social problems in our country. From the children who are apart of the 21% having any kind of relief to poverty will be greatly appreciated in my thinking. But then again, I'm a bleeding heart liberal when it comes to helping children.

But I don't think I'm a better person than someone who holds opinion #1 is the better approach. I think every political opinion needs to be respect otherwise our country will fall apart.

But if I can prove we're spending beyond our means, and FOR WHAT, that we're already in the poor house over it, at some point it stops being opinion.

As a nation we're already dragging a cardboard box under the overpass to go to sleep, to keep on with this permutation of the "American Dream".

Now my metaphor there is an opinion.

Technically, we've traded our allodial title stone Victorian built mansion on 22 acres, in for...

...a 2x4' constructed McMansion in a cookie cutter bank development neighborhood on .2 acre lots, with a Leasehold estate title, and a 3rd mortgage status.

And despite this we're still spending money on new cars straight off the dealership lot (when they lose $10,000 off their pircetag value the moment you drive off the lot), and eating out at fancy 5 star restaurants, and shopping at the mall on designer clothes, and going out to the VIP section in the club every other night, and flying around the world on vacation every other month -on a private jet-, and buying jewelry brand spanking new from Jared's (instead of by weight from hawkers or at least from the pawn store), and doing constant new custom car upgrades on the fleet of automobiles, ragging on them and then dumping the cars for cheap to make room for new ones, and still managing to donate ridciulous amounts of money on BS charities every year that only 3% of the donations actually go to the people they're supposed to help, and so on, and et al, and etc....


Now at what point is saying "the Jones' there, they're spending too much money" become a FACT???

Only right at the very moment the bank sends the sheriff to evict them?

Now if I were going to try and predict exactly what day of what month the bank would try to send the sheriff, and then what actual day the sheriff would have the authority to do it, as an outsider that would be pure opinion.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Comparing micro and macro economics is stupid. You are still stating an opinion and you really need to get right with that fact.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Comparing micro and macro economics is stupid.

FACT: That is an opinion.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Correct. That is an opinion. It seems you are starting to getting the hang of this. I was getting worried there for a second.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

While you keep dodging the question of at what point is saying 'too munch spending' become inherent fact?

Never?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Correct. That is an opinion. It seems you are starting to getting the hang of this. I was getting worried there for a second.

In my opinion you were correct to start getting worried about it.

This is a lot easier than you think, if we all starded doing it then ATS could actually solve a few problems.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Why should I even answer a question that has nothing to do with the OP? This isn't a topic about military spending. It is a topic about identifying opinions and facts. Stop trying to derail a topic with a pet topic of yours.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: Krazysh0t

While you keep dodging the question of at what point is saying 'too munch spending' become inherent fact?

Never?

This thread is about the difference between fact and opinion.

Your insistence on him giving an opinion on your opinion on this specific question is getting the thread off topic.

a reply to: nonspecific

Exactly. I really appreciate the OP writing this thread. It doesn't seem like it because this should be common sense, but clearly there are posters on ATS and even this very thread that need a lesson on the difference between those two words.

Another point that should be said: Admitting that the statement you just said is an opinion isn't an attack against yourself or means that your statement holds any less weight. It seems like there are posters who view admitting they are saying opinions as a character flaw.

Opinion:

www.merriam-webster.com...



Definition of opinion
1 a :a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter

We asked them for their opinions about the new stadium.

b :approval, esteem

I have no great opinion of his work.

2 a :belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge

a person of rigid opinions

b :a generally held view

news programs that shape public opinion

3 a :a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert

My doctor says that I need an operation, but I'm going to get a second opinion.

b :the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

The article discusses the recent Supreme Court opinion.



Fact:

www.merriam-webster.com...

Definition of fact
1 :a thing done: such as
a obsolete :feat
b :crime

accessory after the fact

c archaic :action
2 archaic :performance, doing
3 :the quality of being actual :actuality

a question of fact hinges on evidence

4 a :something that has actual existence

space exploration is now a fact

b :an actual occurrence

prove the fact of damage

5 :a piece of information presented as having objective reality

These are the hard facts of the case.

— in fact
:in truth

He looks younger, but in fact, he is 60 years old.



That was easy...took all of two minutes.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: nonspecific

Exactly. I really appreciate the OP writing this thread. It doesn't seem like it because this should be common sense, but clearly there are posters on ATS and even this very thread that need a lesson on the difference between those two words.

Another point that should be said: Admitting that the statement you just said is an opinion isn't an attack against yourself or means that your statement holds any less weight. It seems like there are posters who view admitting they are saying opinions as a character flaw.

It is an important thread (in my opinion lol).

It is similar to understanding the difference between thinking and knowing.

These small things are far more important than we understand.

a reply to: nonspecific

Now that I've cut to the chase with "Never?" now I'm threatening the topic itself?

And that's not an opinion.

And there's surely no motivated reasoning behind the two of you now refusing to answer the question.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Here. If it gets you to shut up and stop derailing the topic with your personal vendettas I'll tell you what I think of your opinion. I agree. We spend far too much on military spending and it should be cut to pay for more helpful things like social programs or infrastructure development.

Now. Can we get back to the purpose of the thread or do you want to make up more stuff about me and other posters in the thread because we don't want to follow every silly tangent you come up with to derail the thread?

Good thread.

What you are talking about is something totally missed during lots of threads on ATS.

People who accuse you of being ignorant (i.e.. absent of facts) because you disagree with their opinion.....

Its a fundamental flaw in many arguments, you disagree with my opinion because you're stupid or misinformed rather than just respecting that different folks have different views on things.

Now sure we can use facts to back up our opinions and this makes them stronger but they are still opinions it all comes down to how we balance the facts and when it comes to issues of politics that is very often swayed by preconceived ideas.

S&F

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Opinions on opinions is missing the point of this thread. Just because you do not agree with someone else's opinion does not make it wrong.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: nonspecific

Now that I've cut to the chase with "Never?" now I'm threatening the topic itself?

And that's not an opinion.

And there's surely no motivated reasoning behind the two of you now refusing to answer the question.

Make a thread about it and I will happily give an opinion on it to you.

It will most likley be one that agrees heavily with your own opinion.