Trump Supporters Let The Russians Win

originally posted by: Milkweed
The majority of Americans watch MSM.
The MSM tried hard to influence it's viewers to vote for Hillary, yet Hillary still lost.
But somehow we are supposed to believe that Facebook ads tipped the scale in favor of Trump?

Fake News!

MSM and TV is dying and social media and the web are taking over though.

Maybe Hillary lost because she underestimated the change and it is as simple as that irregardless of any outside influence?

Your president is known for speaking via twitter whereas in the past it would have been via newspapers or TV, is this not an indication in the evolution of information dispersal?

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin


I think what you're missing is that Trump supporters were always going to be Trump supporters because they were never going to be Hillary supporters. You don't need the Russians to make you like him and hate her (or vice versa), they do a good job of that on their own.

Something that I always find quite difficult with ATS is that ATS represents a very small proportion of the population.

It has a predominately right leaning membership who also lean toward conspiracy and as such strong mistrust of government so in terms of our community on ATS, yes you do have a very good point. However I think for the wider electorate not so much.

And yet, here you are, on a conspiracy site, trying to tell the readers that you have some amazing insight, but fail in epic proportions in explaining it.

What did the Russians do to influence votes? How many votes were influenced? If Russia didn't do anything, would Hillary have won? If so, by what percentage, and how did you come to that?

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: seedofchucky

Liberalism seriously is a mental disorder.

These are the kind of posts that really just don't help.

How is having any kind of political view point one way or the other a mental disorder?

Just because someone disagrees with you politically you claim they have a mental disorder.

Don't you see how utterly stupid that is?

Don't fall for the trap. Its not a mental disorder. We believe in freedom for all, and equality. If it were not for people like us, we would not have the freedoms they do now. I do realize the alt right want their freedoms too, but there is more to life than guns.

originally posted by: kurthall
...but there is more to life than guns.

Yup. There's booze.

My two favorite items to combine.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: nonspecific
I was thinking more about the uninformed percentage that use social media as thier source of information.

I personally feel that both of them had enough of a public track record that even the 'uninformed' already had their minds mostly made up heading into the election. Could Russia have swayed a few people? Sure. But I don't think it was enough to push the election in one direction or another. I think they did it so we think that's what happened and spend more time eating our own instead of focusing on other issues.

Again am I inclined to agree.

I doubt the involvement was enough to sway a decision but the effect of the involvement in furthuring the divide in the US and scandal that is being created is far more beneficial to them.

On a side note I think this is the longest serious conversation we have ever had and it is a little unsettling.

originally posted by: Milkweed

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

But what gives Russia the monopoly on this tactic? it is not like htey can patent it is it?

As we are all aware nations have been influencing policical decisions in other nations forever and this is just another method that Russia used first.

Again another really good point.

As I mentioned previously in a response to another member, America has been well known for taking steps to play kingmaker in other states over the years using various methods.

They done it before they could do it again, they could learn from what Russia has done to them and recreate it in a why that is in their national interests.

But then how far does this go before it destroys democracy?

Why is it OK for the MSM to try and sway the election in favor of Hillary?

All media (or most media) carries a bias.

There is a difference between putting a political spin on a story and deliberately creating fake news, hacking, social media manipulation and so on.

For example, sure CNN might have been supporting Hillary, but Fox was supporting Trump.

I think freedom of the press is imported in a democracy.

There is a difference in my view between exercising the right to freedom of the press and freedom of speech with a hostile state using espionage to influence a election in their favour.

a reply to: nonspecific

While the MSM might be dying...the majority of Americans still get their news from their TV.

I have never had a Facebook nor a twitter account...

My parents are lifelong democrats...my sibling is gay
We all voted for trump...
Russia had nothing to do with it...

In my parents case, they despise Hillary so much they voted for a republican for the first time since 1980...
So congrats to hillary for being as disdainful as jimmy carter....that’s an accomplishment



-Chris

Will you use the same excuse when he's reelected?

originally posted by: nonspecific
I doubt the involvement was enough to sway a decision but the effect of the involvement in furthuring the divide in the US and scandal that is being created is far more beneficial to them.

I think that is exactly what they wanted, mistrust, paranoia and confrontation amongst ourselves.

On a side note I think this is the longest serious conversation we have ever had and it is a little unsettling.

Would you like me to say something wilidly inappropriate?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

You know what Russians did exert some influence over the election. But so did Czechoslovakia and every other country on the planet with a news caster and an opinion.

The idea that Russia was the one force that tipped the election is just terrible baseless propaganda.

I would argue the U.K. Did more to influence the election, the BBC is the largest media outlet in the world and they were very anti trump. But do hear any trump supporters saying we should start a war with them or even cutoff relations?

Nope, because we aren't crazy sore losers looking for anyone to blame other than our pathetic platform of victimhood and imagined oppression.

originally posted by: Milkweed
a reply to: nonspecific

While the MSM might be dying...the majority of Americans still get their news from their TV.

Yes I assume that is the case but what about the younger generations? Is it possible that there is a percentage of eligable voters that would not watch tv news as it is boring but could have been drawn in and encoraged to vote a certain way because of social media?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: nonspecific
I was thinking more about the uninformed percentage that use social media as thier source of information.

I personally feel that both of them had enough of a public track record that even the 'uninformed' already had their minds mostly made up heading into the election. Could Russia have swayed a few people? Sure. But I don't think it was enough to push the election in one direction or another. I think they did it so we think that's what happened and spend more time eating our own instead of focusing on other issues.

Really good point.

I guess as I said actually establishing the exact extent of any influence is very difficult to measure in terms of the number of votes influenced.

I personally think that with the amount of massive resources that Russia put into this their influence on the election would have been enough to sway some of those valuable electoral collage votes over to Trump.

But yes its not something that can ever be reliably measured.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

So it's OK for a faceless corporation to sway opinion...just not the Russians?
Who controls these corporations?
Undoubtedly the MSM employs the same tactics of fake new, hacking, and social media manipulation...

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Good point. I've been a Trump supporter before they came up with the Russian BS. When I heard about it, I thought it was a good thing to expose Hillary as a criminal
and her party as the most corrupted and twisted.

It wouldn't make a difference if were Bolivians instead of Russians.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
Will you use the same excuse when he's reelected?

Actually this raises a very interesting question.

How does a democracy combat this kind of influence by a foreign state actor?

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: NoFearsEqualsFreeMan
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

So you are against democracy? or what is youre point?

USA has interfered with countless elections around the globe, and plays the role of a policeman, telling everybody else how the should rule their country, so iam gonna call KARMA on this one

Actually I am all for democracy, I just think that when it is being undermined by a foreign actor that must be identified and challenged. It undermines democracy when a hostile state is influencing the electorate with hacking, fake news and social media manipulation.

Again though you make a fair point about Karma, America has at times taken similar actions to play kingmaker in other states.

Got any solutions then?
I think, that if a country/goverment are honest and transparent in what they do, it wouldnt be possible for other goverments to interfere in an election, because of well educated and informed people. But that is NOT what we see.

I think the reason Trump won, was because the other opponent was using terror (the use of fear to further youre political or religious ideas) instead of talking about solutions and what she wanted to do with the country. It was all "let Trump win, and we all go to hell/do this or else..."

He actually had ideas, and solutions, although I dont always agree with them, it is better than a terrorist, using fear to make us vote for her...

originally posted by: Milkweed
a reply to: nonspecific

While the MSM might be dying...the majority of Americans still get their news from their TV.

I would disagree I Think now most get it either from what they see on social media or online news outlets.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

All because Trumps supporters permitted themselves, through their hate of liberal ideals and the Democrats

Which is it? Did the Russians trick otherwise Hillary voters to vote for Trump? Or did Trump supporters hate liberal ideals and the Democrats enough to believe Russian lies? These two ideas can't both be true.