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a reply to: Deetermined
Jehovah: Insight, Volume 2

Early Use of the Name and Its Meaning. Exodus 3:13-16 and 6:3 are often misapplied to mean that Jehovah’s name was first revealed to Moses sometime prior to the Exodus from Egypt. True, Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” But this does not mean that he or the Israelites did not know Jehovah’s name. The very name of Moses’ mother Jochebed means, possibly, “Jehovah Is Glory.” (Ex 6:20) Moses’ question likely was related to the circumstances in which the sons of Israel found themselves. They had been in hard slavery for many decades with no sign of any relief. Doubt, discouragement, and weakness of faith in God’s power and purpose to deliver them had very likely infiltrated their ranks. (Note also Eze 20:7, 8.) For Moses simply to say he came in the name of “God” (ʼElo·himʹ) or the “Sovereign Lord” (ʼAdho·naiʹ) therefore might not have meant much to the suffering Israelites. They knew the Egyptians had their own gods and lords and doubtless heard taunts from the Egyptians that their gods were superior to the God of the Israelites.

Then, too, we must keep in mind that names then had real meaning and were not just “labels” to identify an individual as today. Moses knew that Abram’s name (meaning “Father Is High (Exalted)”) was changed to Abraham (meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”), the change being made because of God’s purpose concerning Abraham. So, too, the name of Sarai was changed to Sarah and that of Jacob to Israel; in each case the change revealed something fundamental and prophetic about God’s purpose concerning them. Moses may well have wondered if Jehovah would now reveal himself under some new name to throw light on his purpose toward Israel. Moses’ going to the Israelites in the “name” of the One who sent him meant being the representative of that One, and the greatness of the authority with which Moses would speak would be determined by or be commensurate with that name and what it represented. (Compare Ex 23:20, 21; 1Sa 17:45.) So, Moses’ question was a meaningful one.

God’s reply in Hebrew was: ʼEh·yehʹ ʼAsherʹ ʼEh·yehʹ. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yahʹ, from which the word ʼEh·yehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Therefore, the New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’”—Ex 3:14, ftn.

That this meant no change in God’s name, but only an additional insight into God’s personality, is seen from his further words: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.” (Ex 3:15; compare Ps 135:13; Ho 12:5.) The name Jehovah comes from a Hebrew verb that means “to become,” and a number of scholars suggest that the name means “He Causes to Become.” This definition well fits Jehovah’s role as the Creator of all things and the Fulfiller of his purpose. Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name.

This aids one in understanding the sense of Jehovah’s later statement to Moses: “I am Jehovah. And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.” (Ex 6:2, 3) Since the name Jehovah was used many times by those patriarchal ancestors of Moses, it is evident that God meant that he manifested himself to them in the capacity of Jehovah only in a limited way. To illustrate this, those who had known the man Abram could hardly be said to have really known him as Abraham (meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”) while he had but one son, Ishmael. When Isaac and other sons were born and began producing offspring, the name Abraham took on greater meaning or import. So, too, the name Jehovah would now take on expanded meaning for the Israelites.

To “know,” therefore, does not necessarily mean merely to be acquainted with or cognizant of something or someone. The foolish Nabal knew David’s name but still asked, “Who is David?” in the sense of asking, “What does he amount to?” (1Sa 25:9-11; compare 2Sa 8:13.) So, too, Pharaoh had said to Moses: “Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away.” (Ex 5:1, 2) By that, Pharaoh evidently meant that he did not know Jehovah as the true God or as having any authority over Egypt’s king and his affairs, nor as having any might to enforce His will as announced by Moses and Aaron. But now Pharaoh and all Egypt, along with the Israelites, would come to know the real meaning of that name, the person it represented. As Jehovah showed Moses, this would result from God’s carrying out His purpose toward Israel, liberating them, giving them the Promised Land, and thereby fulfilling His covenant with their forefathers. In this way, as God said, “You will certainly know that I am Jehovah your God.”—Ex 6:4-8; see ALMIGHTY.

Professor of Hebrew D. H. Weir therefore rightly says that those who claim Exodus 6:2, 3 marks the first time the name Jehovah was revealed, “have not studied [these verses] in the light of other scriptures; otherwise they would have perceived that by name must be meant here not the two syllables which make up the word Jehovah, but the idea which it expresses. When we read in Isaiah, ch. lii. 6, ‘Therefore my people shall know my name;’ or in Jeremiah, ch. xvi. 21, ‘They shall know that my name is Jehovah;’ or in the Psalms, Ps. ix. [10, 16], ‘They that know thy name shall put their trust in thee;’ we see at once that to know Jehovah’s name is something very different from knowing the four letters of which it is composed. It is to know by experience that Jehovah really is what his name declares him to be. (Compare also Is. xix. 20, 21; Eze. xx. 5, 9; xxxix. 6, 7; Ps. lxxxiii. [18]; lxxxix. [16]; 2 Ch. vi. 33.)”—The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, Vol. I, pp. 856, 857.

Known by the first human pair. The name Jehovah was not first revealed to Moses, for it was certainly known by the first man. The name initially appears in the divine Record at Genesis 2:4 after the account of God’s creative works, and there it identifies the Creator of the heavens and earth as “Jehovah God.” It is reasonable to believe that Jehovah God informed Adam of this account of creation. The Genesis record does not mention his doing so, but then neither does it explicitly say Jehovah revealed Eve’s origin to the awakened Adam. Yet Adam’s words upon receiving Eve show he had been informed of the way God had produced her from Adam’s own body. (Ge 2:21-23) Much communication undoubtedly took place between Jehovah and his earthly son that is not included in the brief account of Genesis.

Eve is the first human specifically reported to have used the divine name. (Ge 4:1)

originally posted by: Deetermined

originally posted by: Akragon
Theres simple answers to every trinity argument.... but its a waste of time debating it because trinitarians hold to what they've been taught all their lives regardless of what the bible actually says

Fact is there is no trinity in the bible... Jesus didn't teach it, nor did any of the apostles

LOL! Yeah, both of you have such simple answers that you never give them! The trinity is listed in black and white in the Bible!

actually its not.... anywhere in the bible

trinitarian dogma is based on mistranslations, and deliberate deceptions

trinity equals three beings that are equal... and no where in said book is Jesus or the HS made equal to the Father

In fact Jesus himself completely contradicts the very notion

the whole dogmatic idea holds no water at all

Trinitarians just regurgitate what they've been taught without actually looking into the reality of said dogma

originally posted by: whereislogic

Revelation 1:8 (NW):

8 “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

a reply to: Deetermined

Thanks for driving home my point...

Said verse was about Israel not Jesus.... try reading the whole chapter...

And just so you know, Jesus wasn't EVER called any of those names/titles

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Deetermined

Thanks for driving home my point...

Said verse was about Israel not Jesus.... try reading the whole chapter...

And just so you know, Jesus wasn't EVER called any of those names/titles

Wrong again...

Isaiah 9:6-7

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

a reply to: Deetermined

lol.... again try reading the whole chapter

Its not about Jesus

a reply to: Akragon

Sorry, but Israel isn't capable of being the "Lord of hosts will perform this", Jesus is!

Colossians 1:15-16

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (Jesus):

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

a reply to: Deetermined

And again, you miss the fact that its not a prophecy about Jesus...

Christians love to believe it is... but its simply not true...

read the previous chapters in Isaiah and it becomes quite clear

a reply to: whereislogic

The name Jehovah comes from a Hebrew verb that means “to become,” and a number of scholars suggest that the name means “He Causes to Become.” This definition well fits Jehovah’s role as the Creator of all things and the Fulfiller of his purpose. Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name.

That's right, Jehovah is the Creator of all things, which I pointed out above in Colossians 1:13-16 as being Jesus himself, the one in which "we have redemption through his blood" also was the one who created all things in heaven and on earth.

So, there you go.

a reply to: Akragon

You crack me up. You keep saying it's not about Jesus, but you're not telling us who or what it's talking about specifically. Please, share your knowledge and tell us who/what is being talked about in Isaiah 9:6-7.

a reply to: Deetermined

glad i amuse you....

I've already told you what that verse is about.... It has nothing to do with Jesus what so ever

again, instead of just regurgitating the crap you've been taught.... try reading about the situation in isaiah in those chapters...

Its about Israel... not a man that was born some 600 years later like you Christians want to believe

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: whereislogic

LOL! You are lost! Bible verses make for sound biblical doctrine, you should try reading them sometime!

Explain Exodus 6:3...

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

The problem is you really can't answer any of my questions!

Exodus 6:3 (NW)

3 And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.

"as God Almighty" (see also NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, HCSB, ISV, NET, NHEB, and almost every other translation over at biblehub.com).

Why do you cherrypick the only translation that says "by the name of God Almighty" (or any bible translation that sticks with the KJ rendering of that part of the sentence)? Makes it all a bit harder to see and understand the things mentioned about the concept and different aspects of 'knowing someone' mentioned in my previous response.

a reply to: whereislogic

The only way a trinity makes sense is if one cherry picks the verses needed... and ignore all context

originally posted by: Deetermined

originally posted by: whereislogic

Revelation 1:8 (NW):

8 “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

See, moving on to the next card, which essentially uses the same techniques. Relying on what people have been conditioned with how to view such a text. Which you probably know won't work on me so it's for everyone else to think you've responded with a bible teaching by merely quoting the bible, no eisegesis (but that's already in either the translation or what people have been conditioned with, or those working in conjunction with one another).

Isaiah 9:6 is responded to in the part entitled "God" regarding "Texts in which a title that belongs to Jehovah is applied to Jesus Christ or is claimed to apply to Jesus" that I quoted from earlier, for which the same conclusion at the end I quoted since it was also relevant regarding the title "Alpha and Omega" and the phrase "the first and the last". Let's have a look at the part I skipped just before that point that you haven't responded to yet:

God: At Isaiah 43:10 Jehovah says: “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.” Does this mean that, because Jesus Christ is prophetically called “Mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, Jesus must be Jehovah? Again, the context answers, No! None of the idolatrous Gentile nations formed a god before Jehovah, because no one existed before Jehovah. Nor would they at a future time form any real, live god that was able to prophesy. (Isa. 46:9, 10) But that does not mean that Jehovah never caused to exist anyone who is properly referred to as a god. (Ps. 82:1, 6; John 1:1, NW) At Isaiah 10:21 Jehovah is referred to as “mighty God,” just as Jesus is in Isaiah 9:6; but only Jehovah is ever called “God Almighty.”—Gen. 17:1.

Hebrew Terms. Among the Hebrew words that are translated “God” is ʼEl, probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Ge 14:18) It is used with reference to Jehovah, to other gods, and to men.
...
At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ʼEl Gib·bohrʹ, “Mighty God” (not ʼEl Shad·daiʹ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1).

The Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.

When applying to Jehovah, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. (Ge 1:1)

If a certain title or descriptive phrase is found in more than one location in the Scriptures, it should never hastily be concluded that it must always refer to the same person. Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar was Jesus Christ, because both were called “king of kings” (Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14); and that Jesus’ disciples were actually Jesus Christ, because both were called “the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) We should always consider the context and any other instances in the Bible where the same expression occurs.

At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ʼelo·himʹ, as is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. ...Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: “(individual) divine beings, gods.” And page 51 says: “the (single) gods,” and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Hence, at Psalm 8:5 ʼelo·himʹ is rendered “angels” (LXX); “godlike ones” (NW).

The source with additional information in between and at the end this time was: God: Insight, Volume 1

The same point about "If a certain title or descriptive phrase is found in more than one location in the Scriptures..." counts for "Alpha and Omega", "Savior", "Mighty God", "God" (or "a god"), "Lord", etc.

Here's another response to all the interpretations where Jesus is called "a god" or "Mighty God" to interpret that to mean that he is Jehovah God (or God Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, the uncreated eternal God that did not 'come into being', another subject that has been avoided so far). Not that I'm expecting a reasonable response to anything mentioned in these videos either though, linked them many times:

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: whereislogic

The only way a trinity makes sense is if one cherry picks the verses needed... and ignore all context

None, of which we've noticed, that you have tried to explain. And we know why!

a reply to: whereislogic

Unfortunately, for you whereislogic, you use lots of words, but you say nothing.

Whereas, the verses in the Bible speak for themselves.

Goodnight!

originally posted by: Deetermined

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: whereislogic

The only way a trinity makes sense is if one cherry picks the verses needed... and ignore all context

None, of which we've noticed, that you have tried to explain. And we know why!

which is why i said its pointless debating... and that there are simple answers to every trinity argument, but Christians plug their ears when faced with the obvious truth of the matter

Even your example from Genesis... a flawed argument

"God" was speaking to his angels not Jesus as Christians like to believe... a quick study on the word Elohim, and what it can and CAN NOT be solves that problem right away

i have no need to explain trinitarian "proof texts" to people that don't understand to begin with

all of them are based on mistranslations and deliberate deceptions

just like the many verses in Isaiah which you people use as "proof" Jesus is God... all nonsense, all passages taken out of context of the story to suit your dogma...

I don't agree with Whereislogic's version of the religion either... but at least he understands the lack on trinitarian doctrine in the bible... so its just easier to let him argue this issue

even though its pointless

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: whereislogic

The name Jehovah comes from a Hebrew verb that means “to become,” and a number of scholars suggest that the name means “He Causes to Become.” This definition well fits Jehovah’s role as the Creator of all things and the Fulfiller of his purpose. Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name.

That's right, Jehovah is the Creator of all things, which I pointed out above in Colossians 1:13-16 as being Jesus himself, the one in which "we have redemption through his blood" also was the one who created all things in heaven and on earth.

So, there you go.

Col.1:15

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Simple straightforward logic can be hard sometimes when Satan and his demons have had thousands of years of practicing getting people to abandon it. But I'll have a go anyway, if you're the image of some thing, you are not that thing now are you? However, it does nicely explain why one would say something like "If you have seen me, you have seen that thing", figuratively. Jesus, the image of the invisible God, is not the invisible God himself. After all, Jesus was seen.

For instance, consider what John further writes in chapter 1, verse 18: “No man has seen [Almighty] God at any time.” However, humans have seen Jesus, the Son, for John says: “The Word [Jesus] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory.” (John 1:14, KJ) How, then, could the Son be part of Almighty God? John also states that the Word was “with God.” But how can an individual be with someone and at the same time be that person? [whereislogic: see, same thing again as with Col.1:15, logic is just thrown out the window with these Trinitarian interpretations; it often sounds not much different from Stephen Hawking's "the universe can and will create itself..."; if Paul says Jesus is the image of someone, Jesus isn't that individual he's already an image of, that's clear to me but not to Trinitarians apparently] Moreover, as recorded at John 17:3, Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and his heavenly Father. He calls his Father “the only true God.” And toward the end of his Gospel, John sums up matters by saying: “These have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” (John 20:31) Notice that Jesus is called, not God, but the Son of God. This additional information provided in the Gospel of John shows how John 1:1 should be understood. Jesus, the Word, is “a god” in the sense that he has a high position but is not the same as Almighty God.

Source: The Truth About the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

And when it says "of all creation", then yes, he is a part of creation, he is a created being. Which gives Trinitarian translators a motive for changing it to "over" conveniently.

Col.1:15 (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So one can forcefit the Trinitarian "pre-eminent" (or variations like "supreme") interpretation for firstborn and ignore that "of all creation" on its own already shows that firstborn is referring to being the first that was created. Which is a line of argumentation discussed in more detail in the videos about Col.1:15 that I shared.

Checkout the NLT:

Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,

The clues regarding Trinitarian deception are endless. And then 'they' have the audacity to accuse the NW(T) of theological bias? Yeah sure...a different picture emerges when you study the subjects in more detail and look at a number of different bible translations throughout history to see what game is being played by everyone who has fallen victim to Satan's most succesful propaganda machine: Babylon the Great.

He is a liar! (part 1 of 2)

Which reminds me of how the NIV removed "your name" and replaced it with "you" at John 17:6,26:


And of course this:

a reply to: Akragon

"God" was speaking to his angels not Jesus as Christians like to believe... a quick study on the word Elohim, and what it can and CAN NOT be solves that problem right away

Good try, but there is absolutely nowhere in the Bible that says that angels had anything to do with creating man or anything else. You're making it up, since you know you don't have a leg to stand on in this argument.

Question: "What is the meaning of the word Elohim?"

Answer: Elohim is a Hebrew word that denotes “God” or “god.” It is one of the most common names for God in the Old Testament, starting in the very first verse: “In the beginning [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). The name Elohim occurs over 2,500 times in the Tanakh.

The basic meaning behind the name Elohim is one of strength or power of effect. Elohim is the infinite, all-powerful God who shows by His works that He is the creator, sustainer, and supreme judge of the world. “Bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure—you, the righteous [Elohim] who probes minds and hearts” (Psalm 7:9).

www.gotquestions.org...

a reply to: whereislogic

Jesus, the image of the invisible God, is not the invisible God himself. After all, Jesus was seen.

John 9:7-9

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Matthew 11:27

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 8:23-24

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.