My Fellow Americans, Why Are We Such Suckers ?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Liquesence

Which is like lumping all Muslims in with extremists, which is in itself intolerance for belief.

Without generalizing, conversation would be impossible. I think the onus is on you and any other listener to not confuse language with reality.

Intolerance of opposing opinions is very much like, if not the same as, intolerance of a belief system.

Hence my initial point.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

You want to criticize a religion that has tenants you may disagree with--fine, have at it. I'll even join in.

You want to criticize a group of people who are using that same religion as an excuse to do horrid things? Fine, have at it. I'll join in.

But when it comes down to treating innocents as guilty simply for belonging to said religion? No. That's a line I will not cross. ...and I have a hard time understanding how anyone can.

Oh, they might do something. Might? Really?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: whyamIhere

I really must disagree with your premise. I don't want terrorists living in our cities and towns.

But I do want to live in a free society.

So, unfortunately, we must expect this from time to time.

I guess I'm not explaining myself.

This guy who hates us got here on an immigration lotto.

I want to end the lotto. Reexamine the people we already let in.

Seeing as most Muslims aren't middle eastern let's be honest here. We're talking about Arabs and Persians. Brown people.

And try to get that right. My landlord is Sikh. He's "brown". He's mistaken for a Muslim all the time.

originally posted by: whyamIhere

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: whyamIhere

I really must disagree with your premise. I don't want terrorists living in our cities and towns.

But I do want to live in a free society.

So, unfortunately, we must expect this from time to time.

I guess I'm not explaining myself.

This guy who hates us got here on an immigration lotto.

I want to end the lotto. Reexamine the people we already let in.

Would that do any good if he/she gets radicalized AFTER they arrive?

We're not doing anything to stop people from being radicalized because there really isn't anything we can do.

Freedoms are paramount.

My thought has always been slow, messy, painful public executions of those convicted of terrorist acts.

Make terrorism unpalatable.

But we're almost getting into "thought crime" territory here.

We can't punish thought, we can't punish beliefs, we can't punish ideologies.

We sure as sh#t can punish actions though.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

You want to criticize a religion that has tenants you may disagree with--fine, have at it. I'll even join in.

You want to criticize a group of people who are using that same religion as an excuse to do horrid things? Fine, have at it. I'll join in.

But when it comes down to treating innocents as guilty simply for belonging to said religion? No. That's a line I will not cross. ...and I have a hard time understanding how anyone can.

Oh, they might do something. Might? Really?

I agree with that. But as we know, not everyone is as reasonable as you. If you criticize Islam, you are labelled an "anti-Muslim extremist", even if you are Muslim, by the folks at the SPLC. If you want to talk about "lumping in", or "treating innocents as guilty, beware your own backyard.

a reply to: intrepid

Seeing as most Muslims aren't middle eastern let's be honest here. We're talking about Arabs and Persians. Brown people.

At least you're honest. But if you want to face the menace of Islamist terrorism, you'll have to shake your subliminal identification of the Muslim religion with "brown people". Islam is not a race, a shade of skin. ISIS is multi-ethnic, multi-racial, international organization with members from all over the world, even our own countries.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

My point doesn't need split hairs.

a reply to: intrepid

For all too many that's the way of it.

Right after 9-11 numerous Sihks were attacked for being Muslim. The mistakes continue, as locally a number of threats have been made against Sihks being mistaken for Muslims.

Most of these nimrods haven't even heard of Sihks... Nor do they know anything about Islam other than "It's bad, because the TV/radio says so."

They're dark skinned, many wear a turban-like headdress, to their little tiny minds that translates to Muslim.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: queenofswords

Yet, you're headed down that very road.

My neighbors, some of whom happen to be Muslim, as you may have guessed, have done none of that. They've lived in this country, as a family for over a century and a half, they've served honorably in its military in at least one case--probably more. Yet you would blame them for the actions of others.

You aren't advocating that. Nope. You, however, seem to be if not actively supporting those who do, you're at least willing to look the other way.

I'm not. It's that simple.

Headed down what road? ....the road that says vet muslim immigrants carefully and perhaps moderate their numbers and assist more in their assimilation?

All I am saying is that something is wrong in today's Islam when your neighbor can be peaceful and law-abiding for years, then suddenly become a radicalized "Allahu Akbar" screaming mass murderer.

I neither advocate nor support blaming all muslims for the actions of some, but I do think something is wrong within Islam itself. Perhaps it is because of the cultish nature of the religion itself. It's not only a religion, but a political ideology, a social structure, and a philosophical teaching. Cults are all-controlling.

You have a good experience with some fellow neighbors that are muslim......so your vision is clouded by your own naivety that prevents you from having a rational view that many muslims, especially the younger ones, are becoming radicalized right here in our own country.

Currently, there are thousands of ongoing investigations of radical Islamists right here on our soil. If you're not disturbed or at least concerned, then what can I say. Maybe you will understand when it is your friend lying on the sidewalk mangled beside his bike.

a reply to: intrepid

My point doesn't need split hairs.

Well you're right. Many people make the mistake you just outlined. Take for instance the NDP leader who was met with that kind of racism. The irony is, the Sikhs militarized themselves because they were oppressed by the Muslim Mughals, who wanted to impose Islamic law and convert the Sikhs, many of whom were persecuted and executed. It's why they carry the Kirpan. What a shame.

a reply to: queenofswords

All I am saying is that something is wrong in today's Islam when your neighbor can be peaceful and law-abiding for years, then suddenly become a radicalized "Allahu Akbar" screaming mass murderer.

There's something wrong when anyone can snap, which happens to all kinds of people other than Muslims.

Maybe, just maybe, part of it is how many in the US act and react towards Muslims or even those who even remotely look like them. Maybe, the generalization of Muslims as all suspect and bad, while publicly demonizing them—including through attempted policy—added with the ISIS "look we told you so" propaganda, adds to this.

People, on all sides and colors, get sick of # and snap.

We're creating our own monsters, in more ways than one. Both through foreign aggression, and potential domestic policies.

See the irony there?

I neither advocate nor support blaming all muslims for the actions of some,

Good to know.

but I do think something is wrong within Islam itself

We know. Do you also think something is wrong with black culture?

a reply to: Liquesence

It's simply not true that we are creating the monsters, though the myth that we are has become dogma.

There isn't a day goes by without terrorists engaging in the brutal slaughter of Muslims. Will you say they brought it on themselves?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It's simply not true that we are creating the monsters, though the myth that we are has become dogma.

It is quite true that US policy and action help create and contribute to terrorism, and to say otherwise is disingenuous. Not all terrorism, of course.

There isn't a day goes by without terrorists engaging in the brutal slaughter of Muslims. Will you say they brought it on themselves?

Yes, they also kill Muslims, because the terrorists have perverted Islam.

Ban the beard.

a reply to: Liquesence


You insult me with your last sentence. Why is it that rational discussions about tough issues always result in someone calling another racist? It is an old and worn out tactic.

I challenge you to show me anything in my history where I have shown racist tendencies. NEVER ....not once.

BTW, I do not believe the lie that we are creating the monsters. A cultish religion is creating the monster that mowed down those innocent people yesterday. Whether you face that fact or not is up to you.

a reply to: Liquesence

From ISIS propaganda, Dabiq magazine's article, "Why We Hate You and Want to Fight You".

What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.

The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam. Even if you were to pay jizyah and live under the authority of Islam in humiliation, we would continue to hate you. No doubt, we would stop fighting you then as we would stop fighting any disbelievers who enter into a covenant with us, but we would not stop hating you.

All religious cultures with tendencies toward fundamentalism have the potential to be dangerous.

What happened yesterday in New York was an act of terrorism. We are sadly seeing a continuous rise in acts of terror on US Soil.

There are multiple terrorist acts each year in this country from White Supremacists, anti-government militias, etc.

A joint project by the Investigative Fund at the Nation Institute, a nonprofit media center, and Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting has found that within the past nine years, right-wing extremists plotted or carried out nearly twice as many terrorist attacks as Islamist extremists. Of the 115 right-wing incidents, police only foiled 35 percent. Compare this to the 63 Islamist terrorism cases, where police foiled 76 percent of the planned attacks.

Right-wing extremists were not only more successful, they were often more deadly, too. From 2008 to 2016, a third of right-wing attacks involved fatalities, compared to 13 percent of Islamist attacks. It should be noted, however, that Islamist extremists killed more people overall, with a death toll of 90 people compared to 79.

Newsweek - June 2017

Ask yourselves again ... should we go after terrorists regardless of their associations? Or should we target their associations just to be sure.

Think it through.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
All religious cultures with tendencies toward fundamentalism have the potential to be dangerous.

What happened yesterday in New York was an act of terrorism. We are sadly seeing a continuous rise in acts of terror on US Soil.

There are multiple terrorist acts each year in this country from White Supremacists, anti-government militias, etc.

A joint project by the Investigative Fund at the Nation Institute, a nonprofit media center, and Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting has found that within the past nine years, right-wing extremists plotted or carried out nearly twice as many terrorist attacks as Islamist extremists. Of the 115 right-wing incidents, police only foiled 35 percent. Compare this to the 63 Islamist terrorism cases, where police foiled 76 percent of the planned attacks.

Right-wing extremists were not only more successful, they were often more deadly, too. From 2008 to 2016, a third of right-wing attacks involved fatalities, compared to 13 percent of Islamist attacks. It should be noted, however, that Islamist extremists killed more people overall, with a death toll of 90 people compared to 79.

Newsweek - June 2017

Ask yourselves again ... should we go after terrorists regardless of their associations? Or should we target their associations just to be sure.

Think it through.

That was thought out and very well presented.

Now, whoever has Griffy better let him go right now.

a reply to: whyamIhere

Awww.

That may be a textbook case of a back-handed compliment.